Accountability Without Micromanagement: Building High-Performing Property Management Teams | Jo-Anne Oliveri

A Podcast | Jo-Anne Oliveri

Pete Neubig: Welcome everybody to the NARPM radio podcast. I am your host, Pete Neubig, the voice of NARPM. And today I have Joanne Oliveri, also known, I just never knew this, but also known as the Purple Empoweress. She's a distinguished figure in the field of property management with over three decades of real estate experience and 15 years devoted to coaching, mentoring, and consulting in property management. She's become a global thought leader and influencer in the industry. Jo is the founder and managing director of iRevolution, Caboodle, Flussos, did I say that right? Flussos or Flussos? Flussos.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yes.

Pete Neubig: And the Property Management Academy. And Jo is all the way from Brisbane, Australia, joining us today. So Joanne, thank you so much for being here.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Oh, it's my absolute pleasure. It's so great to be here. And yes, I'm in the future at the moment.

Pete Neubig: That's right. You're what, 13 hours ahead of me or something like that. All right. So 15 years experience. So I'm going to ask you, what are the biggest shifts you've seen in property management over the past 15 years?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yeah. Well, probably the obvious answer to that is the technology that's been rapid fire. Probably in the last five years, it's more rapid fire, but I've been in the industry for over 30 years now.

Pete Neubig: So why don't you use two?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: And in that 15 years prior, the technology was the property management platforms we were using. We saw small improvements and it was really just a place to store data and it still is a place to store data. But as property managers evolved over the last 15 years, they wanted more for their role. They struggled with maintenance. They struggled with inspections. They struggled with different areas, key management. And so we saw a lot of companies step up and say, how can we fix this? And they developed technology. And a lot of it was very rudimentary back then. It really wasn't supporting the property manager in ways that improved efficiency or improved productivity. But now what we're seeing that those rudimentary programs have now evolved into something amazing, which has completely changed the role of a property manager. And some of the key areas there that we've seen that have changed are things like maintenance. There's a lot of AI involved in maintenance. Back in the day, we were employing someone solely to do maintenance. And the reality was there wasn't a lot of maintenance that needed to be done in property management, but there was chaos around it. So technology has removed that chaos and given back time. And then the other thing is the technology we have around inspections with the 360 cameras and the way that it can compare the quality of a property and the standard of a property and the difference in a property. It takes away the human emotion involved in inspecting properties, because quite often it's someone's personal preference as to the way that they report a property. So we've got this great standard of reporting available to us now. And probably the biggest one that we see now is workflows. And what I love about property management is everything we do is a task. We start a lease renewal, there's a series of actions and steps involved in that, and they're tasks. And property management isn't property management without doing tasks. So workflows are completely changing the industry and the way that we do the day to day. And it's really helping us to utilize those remote workers to a much better standard of efficiency and consistency in the business. So it's rapid fire now, the technology, and I love it. I think it's fantastic.

Pete Neubig: Yeah, I remember when I first went to my first NARPM broke national conference, and there was just a few vendors there. Now there's like 100 vendors and a lot of them technology based. I got to ask you, years ago, I always heard that property management in Australia was years ahead of property management in the US. Are you seeing now with all the technology that that gap is closed? Or do you still see Australia being years ahead of the US?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Well, that's really interesting. And that's a really good question, Pete, because I've worked in the US and I've worked in Australia. And there's very few people that have done that. I was vice president of a property management company in Southern California. So I know hands on the difference between Australia and the US. And I honestly think that was Australian egos talking and everywhere I go in the US, they say is Australia better? And, and, and the answer is no. You know, I love the technology better in the US. I think Australia is probably at least three years behind maybe five years behind in technology.

Pete Neubig: Wow. that's the first I heard of that. Now I do know like back in the day, 15 years ago, 12 years ago, because of the legislation requirements, it just required Australians to be better at their craft than than us. But I feel like the legislation regulations, especially in you know, the coastlines here has really made these PMs have to, you know, get get better. And then now you're saying the technology is even better here in the states. So that's that's pretty amazing here.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yeah, it is. Yeah. And you know, technology has been evolving rapidly in the US and Australia is just failing. Yeah, they're relying on the property management platforms here to do it. And they're kind of like testing waters in technology, but not immersing themselves into technology. It's still like a push against it. And a reluctance by property managers completely adapt. So, you know, they are lagging behind badly here. Sorry, Aussies, but yeah, you gotta step up.

Pete Neubig: Where do you think PM business owners are falling behind right now? Is it just that amount of technology? It's kind of like water? Or is there something else they're falling behind in?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yeah, I think, you know, like, we've always known that traditionally, the property management office was quite often owned by someone who'd been in sales. And so their experience was in the sales side of thing, and didn't really know a lot about property management. We've seen that changing, you know, that we've got a lot of property management only businesses now. But there still seems to be this reluctance or what I say, lack of courage and confidence to actually make decisions about the business about the way that they will run their business about the technology that they use. And I think this is they have a greater fear of losing staff than they have of losing clients. And until that switch happens, then they will have the confidence and the courage to look at technology and be able to, you know, stack their technology because technology is confusing. And then once it comes into a business, the confusion is who does what when, you know, like, what don't we do now? Or what do we do differently? And what they're trying to do is use human minds on what technology can do better than human minds. So it's this constant pushback against technology, but they don't even realise they're doing it. So I would say the biggest thing that, you know, leaders need to do now is just have the courage to jump in there with technology and change the role of the property manager, because the role that we saw yesterday is not the same as, you know, the role we see for the property manager today. That has been a massive shift there as well. So, yeah.

Pete Neubig: Yeah, you know, you bring up a good point. It made me think also, you can be reluctant to technology because you might you might lose clients, right? Because you say the client needs to have to have my phone number. And really, you can have an AI bot that will take away an 80% of it wouldn't reduce the number of clients that you have wouldn't create churn. So I like that. Okay. You've worked with many, many firms, both in the US and Australia. What separates high performing property management companies from average ones?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yeah, this is another I love your questions, Pete, because these are things that help companies and leaders and even property managers to think, can we do this better? And I think one of the biggest things is accountability. So, you know, they see accountability as a measure of efficiency, consistency, customer service, delivery, delivering on customer service promise. And they will manage every element of business. And that's important. A lot of people call that micro management. But what you can't measure, you can't manage. That's a definite. And you have to measure that. And what you can't manage, you can't measure. So, you know, there's no point in business in going along and thinking, you know, we were doing really well here, because we feel we're doing well. And that's the difference between a good company and a great company.

Pete Neubig: I'll paraphrase here. High performing agencies, review metrics and hold people accountable to those metrics.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Exactly.

Pete Neubig: That would be a good way of saying that it perfect way of saying it. And then the average ones either have metrics, but don't look at them, don't have metrics, or they have metrics, don't hit them. And then they're people aren't accountable to them. And they're not trying to fix the issue that's causing the metric to be below what they think it should be.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Exactly. They just let it slide by, because they don't want to offend the person or they think that person's just had a bad run. Or, you know, they make excuses and ignorant to what's going on. Whereas, you know, the high performing ones, if they're measuring what's going on, they're identifying what needs to be done to resolve it. But the other part of this, Pete, is if you're measuring what's going on, then when they have the great streaks of, you know, good rates of return, high efficiency, higher productivity, they can reflect back and say, how did we do that? Because we want to make sure that we keep doing that. If you don't know how you achieved your targets and success, then you don't know what you need to do to repeat it, to do it again. Just as if you've got a failure somewhere, if you don't know where that failure is, then you'll just keep repeating that failure. So, you know, measuring and monitoring generates success all the way along. Because you know what's good, you know what's bad. You repeat what's good, you change what's bad. So, yeah. Very important.

Pete Neubig: It's funny. I'm running VPM right now. And last year, we, as a leadership team, were looking at some major numbers, three main KPIs. And they were never consistently green. And we weren't doing anything with them. And I finally realized, I'm like, we're creating a culture of if you don't hit your metrics, it's okay. And that's the culture we wanted to create. So we had to really either A, change the KPIs, or change the number or do something about it and achieve those KPIs. And I'm happy to say this first quarter, we actually hit those main three KPIs. So it goes back to what exactly you said. If I know it's failing, and I hold myself accountable, I will create the processes or I'll create a way to solve that, which will then make that number green.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Exactly. And a lot of companies, Pete, what they do is they have key performance indicators. But key performance indicators have to come from somewhere. And they come from what I call the BPI, the business performance indicator. Because we know with key performance indicators, we have to achieve this in order to make sure that we achieve the business performance indicators, the business targets. So you can't make up key performance indicators if they don't lead to an overall end result for the business. And that's where I think a lot of them fail, because they're looking at other companies and they're saying, well, they get their property managers to achieve this, this and this. But what does that mean for their business? So you can't copycat of other businesses. You learn, but you create your own. Yeah.

Pete Neubig: So is this the secret? I had a question I was gonna ask you later on, but I'm gonna I'm gonna move it up here and ask now, is this the secret to building accountability in a team without micromanaging? Is it KPIs? Is that is that really the secret? Or is there are there a couple other secrets out there that you've seen?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yeah, well, KPIs is a major part of it. Without key performance indicators, we're floundering, we're doing all sorts of things. But the secret also, I believe this is a big one, is immersion into the, you know, whatever technology, whatever process that you say, this is the way that we do this. So it's immersion into your technology, your team roles, your, you know, like your promise of delivering to clients. There's no point in making a promise to clients is we're going to do this for you. And we don't know how we deliver that. That's a lack of accountability. So, you know, one of the biggest things I also say is there is no such thing as micromanagement. It's a buzzword that's come about in the industry as an excuse for property manager to push back and say, stop it, you're micromanaging me. We have to manage every element of the business of what our, you know, team members do. Or else, you know, like, we can have one little area of mistake that becomes one of the biggest liabilities for the business.

Pete Neubig: Yeah, I call them, I call them taps, two by fours and Mack trucks.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Exactly.

Pete Neubig: I love that. Your shoulders telling you, hey, I got a problem here. If you don't do anything about it, then they hit you with a two by four. And if you still don't know anything about it, the Mack truck runs you over.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: I love it. That's a great way of saying it. Yeah.

Pete Neubig: So I think, you know, I think a lot of property management company owners have a hard time having difficult conversations. And I think the conversation becomes difficult because they don't have KPIs. And so they say things like, hey, Joe, I feel like you're not doing a good job. Right. And it's like, well, Joe's like, well, I feel like I am. So we're an impact. Right. And so by having these KPIs, you can say, Joe, I feel you're doing a good job, but you're not because here's the numbers. Right. And then, and then that's a time. And of course, it shouldn't get to this. It shouldn't be like a yearly thing. Like you should be able to see the numbers and course correct. So tell me about like, how often should I be meeting with the team or the supervisors meeting with team so that we can manage with through accountability versus the micromanagement or versus like looking at stuff or not managing at all. Right. The worst of micromanaging is probably abdicating and just saying go at it and go forth and conquer.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Oh, most definitely. You know, like is it fact or fantasy? Because fantasy is feel. And if you see a sports coach on the field, they're not saying I feel that you're doing a great job out there. They look at the scores and they look at the stats and say, you know, like guys, you know, this is what we need to do in order to get that next try or goal or whatever it might be. And it's the same in business. It's like, this is not about fantasy. It's not about feel. And what we need to be able to do is talk to the team about what they're achieving. And I say it's always about, you know, when you're talking to the team and encouraging them to do better, you should always be able to tell the truth. And the best way to do about that is to tell them what they're doing right. Give them three cuddles. You did this right, this right, this right. But I'm going to give you a kick now because this is where you can do better.

Pete Neubig: Cuddles and kicks. I like it.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yes. So cuddle, cuddle, cuddle, kick. And then they're listening to you. They're absorbing that. And then they're agreeing. It's like, yeah, I did great there. And yeah, you're right, Jo. Like I really failed in that area. What do I need to do to improve? And this is where business owners are not having enough conversations with their team. So this should be a one-on-one every month. Go over the results. Make it meaningful. So you've got your targets. These were your KPIs. This is what you achieved. This is what you failed on. And this is why you failed on that. This is why you achieved those things. You're putting so much focus into that, that you're missing out on this area of achievement. Why is that? And quite often, it's because the team member is fearful of conversations or fearful of doing the wrong thing. And that's where the business owner puts on their coaching hat and they become a coach, not a best friend. So you've got to be able to cuddle, cuddle, kick, and then the team will improve. And they'll stop seeing that micromanagement as micromanagement. Rather, it's performance enhancing.

Pete Neubig: It's management.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: It's management. It's, yeah, think of the sports coach.

Pete Neubig: So I'm a big fan of meeting weekly with the team. Now, I don't personally, as a CEO of VPM, I don't meet with every one of my team members weekly, but my supervisors will meet with their teams weekly. And you're saying monthly, do you think weekly is too much? Or do you like weekly? But you're saying a minimum is monthly, but what are your thoughts on weekly?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yes. So that's the one where you go over the results. Everyone has targets for the month to achieve the overall 12-month target. I have, you know, what I call the huddle in the morning. And the huddle is no more than seven minutes.

Pete Neubig: Daily huddle every day?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Daily huddle every day. And what you're doing at the daily huddle is you're looking at what needs to be done today. Who's in? Who's got a high productivity day? Who's got a low productivity day? Because people might be assigned responsibility for certain roles or tasks, but the business has promised an overall, you know, result for the clients. So it's up to the business to say, you've got high productivity today, I'm redistributing the load. And that's what a huddle is all about. Or I need you to, you know, not focus on that today, we can do that later in the week. Every day you get focused on what we need to do. And you see this in every other industry. It's like, this is what we're doing today. Let's go and do it as a team, not individual co-op. And then the weekly is very important.

Pete Neubig: Pause on the weekly. I got a couple of questions on the huddle. How big does the company get before the huddle needs to be broken up? Like, can you have a full company huddle? Like if I'm only four people, I don't need three different huddles. I can have one huddle. Do you see at some point, whether it's 15, 20, 30, 50 people, that the huddle needs to be broken up into different groups?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: If those 14, 15 people are all focused on delivering on the one thing, that is managing the property for the clients, then yes, you can have every one of that huddle because your technology, your dashboards is giving you the information on what needs to be done today. Okay. So you've got to rely on that information. So if I look at the workflows, the workflows determine that today we need this action or step done. And so we work on just that action and step. And if we look at something like a tenancy renewal, that can be done over a period of three months. But just because we've got this open tenancy renewal, we're not working on it today. We're not working on it tomorrow. We can see that we've got this big long list of tenancy renewals, but today we only need to do one thing on all of the ones that are open. And that's where property managers get so bogged down in like, I'm working on 30 renewals at the moment. Like, yeah, but they're all at the exact step that they need to be today. So, you know, we don't get overwhelmed with everything. We get highly focused on the action and step that needs to be done today. And that's what huddles are all about. So if you've got a bigger team and it's the property management operations team, then yes, that huddle is done together. But if it's like a supervisor's team, then their huddle is separate because that's about we need to achieve this because we're falling behind in targets for the month. So this is what we need to go out there and focus on.

Pete Neubig: So for example, if I'm pod based, each pod might have their own huddle. I'm not going to have a huddle with all the pods. Would that be a good way to see that's how we break down the huddles?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yeah, well, even pod based. So I don't know if you know this, but I was the original creator of what a pod is. It's a Profit Optimization Distribution Zone, PODZ. So I created that acronym and the way a pod is, it's a grooming ground for your next member of the team. So pods, you know, they kind of like they grow and they like they reach that status like a balloon where it's going to split. But we've got the member of the team who's ready to start the next portfolio and then pods. But overall, overall, we've still got maybe three or four pods that between those pods, we might distribute loads.

Pete Neubig: Got it. So if you cross pollinate the pods, then one huddle, if the pods are kind of individualized, then you can have three different huddles with the three different pods.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Exactly. Yeah.

Pete Neubig: Okay. All right. So now tell me about your weekly meetings.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Right. So the weekly meetings are all about, you know, like getting on top of things for the week. So before the week finishes, I like to do audits by the end of the week. And those audits, what we're doing is we're saying these things need to be done in order to complete out the week. So if we've done inspections for the week, those reports need to be out within 24 hours of an inspection being done. If we've done, you know, the move in, it needs to be completed. So what we're doing as a team leader or business owner, whoever might be, you know, leading that team is we're going through and we're looking at arrears results, maintenance, all of those things to say this needs to be done before we close out the week.

Pete Neubig: So do you like your weekly meetings midweek then? Because I know Mondays are always, they feel like, they feel like you open a door and Mike Tyson's there and he's punching you in the face. So what do you think is the ideal day for a weekly meeting?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yeah, ideal day is either Thursday afternoon or Friday morning, because it gives that time to close out. And what the team leader also does from that is prep for the next week. They're looking at what's happening next week, who's in, because we might have team away. And if team's away, we're ready to redistribute their load as well. So just because the person's away, we don't call the client and say, I'm sorry, we can't do that today because someone's away. We're constantly redistributing and balancing load.

Pete Neubig: Now give me a sample agenda of your weekly meetings. What's the agenda that you like?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yeah, the agenda I like is always start off with what we've achieved for the week. Great job here, great job there. And the reason why we achieved that great job was this, cuddle, cuddle, cuddle. And now we're going to do a few kicks because we've got the team engaged then. They're like, yeah, that's great. Yeah. And if there was an individual performer, then, you know, shout them out, you know, and say, you know, this person achieved this in the team because we noticed their focus. I've done a lot of Disney training and Disney is all about, they call them, you know, wow moments, which is witnessing outstanding work. And Disney calls out great performance. And we should do that, you know, in our industry as well, call it out. But then, you know, if there is someone who's poor performer, don't call that out at your team meeting.

Pete Neubig: Raise in public, redirect in private.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Exactly.

Pete Neubig: All right. So I do the feel goods. I do the cuddle, cuddle. What's next? And how long do you think the weekly meeting should be? About 45 minutes, an hour? Is that kind of the time frame?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Never longer than 45 minutes. I like to keep it to 30 minutes. I like to keep it going or else it becomes a chat fest. And, you know, you lose focus. So you need the agenda. The other thing I always say to the team is, if you've got something that needs to be brought up at that meeting, like I don't want to hear discussions in the office all week, that costs money when they're just discussing things. If they need to discuss something, it comes to the team meeting.

Pete Neubig: Agreed.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yeah. It's just, if you add up the time that, you know, 15 minutes from yours and yours we've suddenly lost two hours. So, yeah.

Pete Neubig: So we use like Slack. And one of our, you know, internal policies is that you cannot Slack anybody a challenge unless it's a five on one fire. All challenges go to the weekly meeting. And what we have found is 80% of those challenges are usually solved by the time we have the weekly meeting.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Exactly. And that's why I say, you know, like it goes on the agenda. If it's not on the agenda, we don't discuss it. And quite often you'll have your agenda there and you'll say so and so put this on. We'll talk about that. No, it's been resolved. And if someone tries to bring something else up, it's not on the agenda. It is.

Pete Neubig: I'm going to start doing that.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Good, good. Because they just go off in different directions with their talking and suddenly, you know, an hour's gone.

Pete Neubig: I got to tell you, Jo, I'm amazed at how many people I talk to that have meetings with no agenda.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Oh.

Pete Neubig: And you're right. It just becomes a chat fest.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yeah. Yeah.

Pete Neubig: And then you get nothing done. Nothing gets accomplished.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Exactly. You know, agenda is key to this and you've got your regular points and then the points that come up during the week.

Pete Neubig: All right. So I do my cuddle. We have stuff that's on the agenda that's during the week that's not a five alarm fire. Do you go over to KPIs in this weekly meeting as well? Or do you wait till the end of the month on your monthly meeting?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: No, I wait till the end of the month. What we're doing is we're looking at how we're tracking for the KPIs and we're hitting on we need to get this done. You know, we're seeing, you know, slippage in arrears or things like that.

Pete Neubig: Do you ask them to rate the meeting at all? That's an EOS thing. You know, traction thing. I never do the rate the meeting. I do what's your stress level. That's what I used to do in my property management. Because if it's a 10 plus, like, okay, we got to figure something out. If it's a two or three, we're good. Do you do that in your meetings or do you recommend that to your clients at all?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: I recommend there is a rating on management because then you get back, you know, like how are the team feeling and help with morale. But I have a rating, like a self rating I give the team where they let me know out of five where they're feeling in their own performance, in their own, you know, knowledge, in their own kind of like confidence. And that's a self rating that then helps me to go back to them at the one-on-one. So they have to prepare this prior to the one-on-one. And then I can look at that and say, well, you know, you've only given yourself a three here, why is that? And it then helps me to understand how they're feeling, even how they feel within the team structure, if they're floundering in the team. And because sometimes, you know, they can feel a little bit bullied and we're not aware of that. We see someone who's confident, but they're actually kind of like sitting in their own shell and they're getting more and more caught up in their own shell, because they're feeling bullied or overwhelmed. And if we don't identify that, we can lose them or their performance starts slipping. So it's really important for them to be able to explain how they're feeling and, you know, not be judged by that.

Pete Neubig: You know, one of the things that we just launched at VPM is a survey to the supervisor. So not the VA side yet, but not the virtual assistant side yet, but the survey to the supervisor. So after two weeks, the supervisor, like when they hire somebody after two weeks, they'll get like a two or three question survey based on the orientation. Then they get a 30 day, a 60 day and a 90 day. And then it's like every six months or once a year, and it keeps a health score. So you can see if the team member is in alignment, if they're going up or down in their health score.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Yeah, that's brilliant. I love that because it's always important to check in and just see how they're going. One of the things you've got to be very careful on is if you are rating a team leader or supervisor, that the team aren't ganging up, you know, and they're giving poor ratings on that supervisor because there's something going on. And we see this with coaches in sporting teams where team performance falls and, you know, they're blaming the coach and there's a whole team that's pushing against this coach and management hasn't stepped in to stop the bad behaviour and the culture that's creeping into this sporting team and the sporting team falls apart. You know, and then they've got to kind of like rebuild and everything. We see this over and over. And this can happen in business too. So we've got to really, when we get this information, as business leaders, we've got to drill down to where is this coming from? You know, what's creating this? And is it a bad culture that's seeping through? Is it a gang that's, you know, like, you know, just going up against someone who's just doing their job? We're telling them to do their job but the team is pushing back on it so they look like the bad guy. So yeah, we've really got to analyse it and understand what's really going on here.

Pete Neubig: So Joe, what is one thing, somebody who's listening to this podcast, typical property manager, business owner can implement this week to improve performance?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Oh, Pete, I would say, you know, the thing that, and I'm not just saying this because I'm involved in workflows, but workflows, what we're seeing with workflows is regardless of what workflow, you know, technology you use, that the team push back on it. They say, no, we do this faster than the workflow. And the reality is they don't. You know, they've got these whiteboards everywhere and, you know, they don't know the exact step that they're at, you know, with any of the workflows.

Pete Neubig: They don't do it the same way all the time.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Exactly, there's a lack of consistency. If a team member leaves, then we're like, well, you know, like, what were they in the middle of doing? What stage were they at? And, you know, if the team member is even away and they're not well for the day, we need to be able to step in and do what needs to be done for that day, not say, well, sorry, you know, that person's not here. You can't run a business like that. So workflows, I think is one of the biggest game changers, but, you know, like with the workflows will come AI too and the understanding of AI. But please get used to workflows. Stop using a human mind when it comes to workflows because they're very intelligent, very intuitive. And what doesn't feel right is only because workflows make something more, more kind of like congruent in the way it flows from one step to the next.

Pete Neubig: And one team member- It also makes it rigid too. Like you can't color outside the lines. Like this is what you do, right? Versus like, oh, one property manager likes to do it this way. The other property manager likes to do it this way. It's like, no, this is the way we manage properties.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: A hundred percent. And they should never ever have within their team where one property manager says, I never do it that way. This is the way I do it. You know, that's not-

Pete Neubig: You were in my office back in 2015, evidently, because that's exactly what happened.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Exactly.

Pete Neubig: All right, so if somebody's interested to reach out to you, want to learn more about you and your businesses and your coaching, what's the best way to get in touch with you?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: I would say probably the best way is to visit my website, jooliveri.com. And you'll get my email there because my email is a little bit difficult. It's irrevolution.com. But the best way to remember that is irrevolution is my surname backwards. So I always said I'd create- You'll throw your surname and then make it backwards.

Pete Neubig: That sounds way complicated. So let's give the website one more time.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: It's jooliveri.com.

Pete Neubig: And that's J-O-O-L. So we got double O's. J-O-O-L-I-V-E-R-I.com.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Exactly.

Pete Neubig: It's not .au for you, Australia. You Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, no?

Jo-Anne Oliveri: Oh no, I'm global.

Pete Neubig: Oh, thank you so much. If you are listening to this and you are not a NARPM member, you can go to narpm.org or give them a call at 800-782-3452. And if you are in the market to learn more about remote team members, or you want to just connect to a marketplace with over 45,000 remote team members looking for work in the property management space, go to vpmsolutions.com or feel free to email me, direct, pete@vpmsolutions.com. Thanks for being here, Jo.

Jo-Anne Oliveri: My pleasure. Thanks, Pete. Bye.