Building a Property Management Company Worth Owning | Chapin Hemphill

A Podcast | Chapin Hemphill

Pete Neubig: Welcome, everybody, to the NARPM Radio Podcast. I'm your host, Pete Neubig. And like always, I always have a great guest for you all, and today's no exception. Chapin Hemphill, who is the current CEO and co-owner of Keyrenter Boise Property Management. He also founded and successfully exited Keyrenter Silicon Valley. He consults with operators nationwide on leadership, AI, operational systems, and business value. Chapin doesn't believe property managers should simply manage properties, they should build companies worth owning, which I totally agree. Chapin, thanks so much for being here.

Chapin Hemphill: My pleasure. Good to see you, bro.

Pete Neubig: All right, man. So most PMs that sell their property management firm do not get back into the game. They end up servicing the PM industry as a coach, a vendor, maybe they build a VPM solutions, but they're not going back in. So tell us the story on, one, how you started Keyrenter Silicon Valley, and then the exit, what that looked like, and then why you actually decided to get back in. Because I'm kind of back in, I'm a 10% owner, broker of a PM firm here in Texas, but I am not hands-on like you are in what you're building, a really unique, cool PM firm in Boise. And if you guys have not heard our podcast with Chapin's business partner, Kyle, I recommend that you do download that one. So shoot away, tell us the story, man.

Chapin Hemphill: Yeah, man. So I started Silicon Valley because I basically, I exited corporate America. I was at Graystar, which is arguably the world's largest property manager, managing a billion-dollar portfolio in Santa Clara County, California. And I just, the short story is I hit my end. My clients were Goldman Sachs and other players of that size and capacity. Just wasn't fulfilling anymore. It actually wasn't fulfilling for a long time. My son was just born. I just had a new perspective on life. I wanted to stop doing things that made me miserable, consciously. So I left. I exited. One day, very suddenly. Okay. Yep. It was kind of a take this moment, shove it moment, you know what I mean? Just I'm done. I actually could hear my son, he was, again, he was just born. I could hear him asking me in the future, daddy, what do you do? Why do you do it? And it was like, well, I do property management because they pay me well. And that wasn't a very good, that's not the model I wanted to be. So anyway, that all also in- I don't want to just gloss over this.

Pete Neubig: Talk a little bit about what that conversation was like to your wife, newborn baby, you have all this, now you have another responsibility, not just to your wife. Was she working? Was she able to cover the expenses where you started another business? Talk a little bit about that because it's not an easy decision. That's a really, really difficult decision to make.

Chapin Hemphill: Yeah. And what I'm about to tell you makes it a lot more convoluted. My wife is a physical therapist by practice. She's also our head of maintenance here at Keyrenter. She has two careers and she's amazing at both of them. My wife near, in the middle of Keyrenter Silicon Valley learned she had cancer. And so we spent a lot of our time during that period fighting that and building a business. When she beat it, let's just start with the good news. She beat it. She beat it. She's healthy. She's amazing. Praise God. It was not, yes. It was not easy, obviously. And she lost her physical therapy business in California because when you can't show up for eight months, you lose your clients, right?

Pete Neubig: Yeah. Physical therapy, you literally have to be there to actually move the joints and do that. Like yeah, that's kind of like, it's like a doctor, right? Like it's a high paying gig, but you have to be there.

Chapin Hemphill: You have to be there. And you have to be there regularly and she just, it just dissolved. So when she was healthy enough to come back, she just started helping me with the business and stuff. She got hooked up. She found that she was really good with maintenance and like project management. I wasn't as good. And so I happily handed that over to her and she's been a key member ever since of all the businesses. But she also still has, she built her physical therapy practice here in Idaho as well. So that's back and doing well.

Pete Neubig: So she does- She kept her license and all that stuff. She kept up to with the, but let's talk, let me, I want to go back even a little bit more before she's diagnosed. You're unhappy with your career. She's happy with her physical therapy career. How'd that conversation go? Like, Hey, we have this newborn, but I want to quit my, you know, six figure plus job and make $0 and I don't know what I want to do yet when I grow up.

Chapin Hemphill: I was miserable at that, in that position for a long time. I would, you know, it's, it's, it's not just corporate. It's what comes with that. So I had a terrible manager who, you know, did not know how to manage. He was put in that position because he wanted it, you know, it was just the corporate, you know, nonsense. So that was part of it. I just, I just had it. I was sick of reporting to someone that didn't know how to manage me. I have had great managers in the past and that's where I excelled at what I did. But I just found that like the people I was interacting with was, was really, really important. I really, I mean, that's, that's an obvious thing to say, but I felt it more than ever in this, in this place. And I, I just decided it was time at, like I said, it was sudden. She, for a long time, I was not happy. She knew that. I came home one day and I said, I quit today.

Pete Neubig: Oh, so that was a conversation.

Chapin Hemphill: Okay. She, she did the, what are we going to do? So I, I, I took about eight, nine months to figure out what I was going to do next.

Pete Neubig: Oh, that must have been difficult. Was that difficult financially or did you have some money saved? Yeah.

Chapin Hemphill: Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Pete Neubig: Especially, I'm thinking living in Northern California is not cheap.

Chapin Hemphill: No. And I basically ran out of money. I had to make a decision. And I was looking at a bunch of franchises, I ultimately, and, and different friends and different like company types. I was, I was going through that, do I want to stay in property management? Ultimately I decided, you know, there's, I decided on Keyrenter. I was a very, very early franchisee. I mean, we're talking first 10 or first five, even franchisees out of the gate. So the reason I did that is because I was coming out of this corporate experience, which was lasted about 18 years and leadership opportunity. My radar for the integrity I'm meeting with, like my gut feeling about the integrity of the players of who I'm talking to were all the most important things to me. Everything else, money, how much is it going to cost figuring this out? Is this the right thing? All were, were, were much further down the list for me at the time. And I just, Keyrenter resonated with me. Nate and Aaron are exceptional people. Aaron is no longer with us. He passed away in 21. He was the original CEO and founder, but I just found, I, I believed in this company because if you went to the franchise headquarters at the time when they were launching and you saw the processes that they had in place, it was a little, it was a risk, it was a little scary. They were just getting started. So, but I felt it, right. It has ended up being the best decision of my career and I love it. I just, I'm having a lot of fun.

Pete Neubig: The reason I, let me ask you this, let me ask you this real quick, you know, to be one of the top five or 10 franchisees first, what, what would be one of the first, what made you decide, like, Hey, I can do this on my, like, why'd you decide to go Keyrenter versus trying to do it on your own? Cause they don't really have a lot of name brand at that point in time. Cause you wanted it first.

Chapin Hemphill: Feeling nothing.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. It was just like, Hey, I feel, I got emotional support. I got, I got some, I got some process support. I got, you know, um, you know, some volume discounts. Like what, what was the, what was the kind of the thing that said, I'm going to go franchise versus do it myself?

Chapin Hemphill: I guess I understood, but one of the things I took away from corporate is that it, it, it takes this business. You can't solopreneur it. I mean, if you want to, if you want any momentum or any leverage that's helping you, you can't do it solo. There's too many hats you have to wear. And the, the things they were going to help me with in the background, I didn't want to do them. I didn't want to figure out how to do them. And, um, that's what they did for me. So, but again, it was also like, who, who do I want to surround myself with? Um, you know, who do I want to take their hand and go and, and build this together with, and I, and believe me, I'm not like a partnership guy and I'll, I do have partners, but I'm very, very wary about having a partner. I have seen the negative effects of that. My, my father, my dad had partners. I saw some horror there. So I was wary, but, um, and so I picked it carefully. I think that the point is, is I'm wary. I picked it very carefully and it was a great decision.

Pete Neubig: Nice. Okay. So take me through. So, so you run Keyrenters, Silicon Valley for how long, how long were you there for? You know, five years and, um, what made you decide to exit?

Chapin Hemphill: Well, um, in 2019, we had, uh, two fires. That came within a mile of us. We didn't know what school my son was going to go to. The only option at the time was public school, which was unacceptable to us in California. Um, and not just public, even charters we couldn't get into. It was just, it was, it was, uh, not a good scene. Um, the state of California, PG&E decided that their methodology to prevent fires was to turn off the electricity. When it got windy, I'm trying to run a home-based business. I had no electricity for five days at a time, having generated, uh, the. It had very little to do with politics for me. A lot of people left California for, because of politics that that was not it. It was, uh, dealing with the DRE dealing with, with, uh, bureaucracy, with my small business, all the stuff that was happening around us, no real future for my son.

Pete Neubig: Which is not, but it's affected my boss.

Chapin Hemphill: We were like, this is not the place we moved to originally. And we, we need to get out. So my, that was a great moment because I realized that I have, I've built this thing that has real value that we can sell. We can exit and we can exit well, gracefully, if we do this right. And so I call at the end of 2019, I called the franchise. I let them know. I I'm, I want to sell their responsibilities. It's about time. Where do you want to go? So there, they were assuming that I wanted to start another office, which was a correct, they knew me. That was a correct assumption. I just didn't want to do it right away. I had almost killed myself in the process of building this business pretty much solo. Um, at the end of the day, well, then COVID happened.

Pete Neubig: I had, I had, so your wife's battling cancer while you're building the business, right? You got a lot, a lot of going on. Yeah.

Chapin Hemphill: COVID happens. I was like, Oh, how's this? Cause I just had put my business up for sale. How is this going to affect it? Turns out we are an essential business. I, I crushed it during COVID. California statewide rent control had just been rolled out right before COVID and then COVID hits. There's a lot of frightened landlords and I was sought out. So we did well. Um, I had also set myself up to be contactless just because I don't necessarily like dealing with people.

Pete Neubig: Want face to face.

Chapin Hemphill: But I had set up myself. So our, our, our transition during COVID was very graceful. I was already set up that way.

Pete Neubig: And so do you find it funny when people have an office and they still encourage their renters to come in and drop the check off?

Chapin Hemphill: I mean, so you write checks, you know?

Pete Neubig: Yeah. So you're, you're set up for it. Um, now let me ask you this. Um, how many units did you have when you, when you sold? 132. Okay. So not too big, but profitable because your, your average rent, I'm sure.

Chapin Hemphill: It was very profitable. And so this is kind of where it gets interesting. I was able to basically get to 132 units with the remote person and my wife who came in near the end of that, how did I do that? I, I was like, I leaned into Zapier to take over my business, right? At the time it was like process street and Zapier. So Zapier for those who may not be familiar is a software that allows your data from one app to speak to the, to the, to the, to another app. And it also initiates triggers some actions based on things that happen with that data. So it's a way to, you know, in the early days, it was the early form of AI, which is, you know, you know, software talking to each other. But I, and so this was really, I mean, lead simple was out, but it wasn't as robust, so it was process street. Right. You remember those days? I do.

Pete Neubig: I do. I've heard of process street. Never use it.

Chapin Hemphill: Yeah. Anyway, so I was able to, a lot of automation and manage this, this business with, with, you know, few people, a lot of automation, and it was really profitable because of that. And it got, it was profitable quickly because I didn't have to, I didn't have that direct labor costs. So it's sold well, I just fast forward. It took about nine months. I decided not to use a broker. I didn't want to pay the fees. And just like I just like we are always telling our potential landlord clients, you don't want to do this. Why would you want to do this? I was one of them. I was like, no, I can do it.

Pete Neubig: That's where the franchisor kind of helps out. Right.

Chapin Hemphill: Don't they have franchisees always looking and at the time they had no departments to, at this point, they were, they were there for questions, but I was, I think I was the first one to actually sell my office, so this was all new and yeah, nine months later I got four offers. One was from Pure and I will give a shout out to Michael Catalano. He, he was, you know, he's in Silicon Valley. I met up with him. He coached me, you know, I, I, I kind of take credit for selling it myself, but he was coaching me through it. Then he gives me an offer. I love you, Michael. I appreciate the offer, but I decided to go with someone else and hopefully I'm not dead to him, but it's been a while since we've spoken. So, but I do, I do love and appreciate it.

Pete Neubig: Yeah.

Chapin Hemphill: Um, so anyway, I did have like, I, I, I feel like I leaned on, on good mentors and like I had people kind of coaching me through it, but it was a lot of work. I got the four offers at the end of 2020, accepted one, put my house up for sale. It sold in eight days, ran over, ran over. We had already picked Idaho as our next place to live. One of the reasons why I loved it besides the many, many great things about this place is instead of in California, I think it took me about eight months and $900 to open up my business. In Idaho, it, it took me a day and a half and $25. That's the difference. Yeah. And that was like, I liked that Eve, I knew that going in, like, okay, this is a very friendly place to start a business. And so that was a big part of my decision because I knew I'm not, I'm not done being an entrepreneur. And so, um, yeah, we are thrilled to be here.

Pete Neubig: Again, um, you were, uh, it sounds like you still want, like, did you, like, cause you said you took a little bit time off after you sold, did you want to go back into property manager or were you kind of thinking like, Hey, I'll, you know, I'll go and serve as property manager or I'll just go do something completely different. Like what was, uh, what was your original thought for us there?

Chapin Hemphill: I started doing what we all do. I started coaching and my coaching was based on, you know, how can you sell a 132 door property management company for a lot of money? Um, what was, what was the formula there? I started coaching through that and I got, I know I got a handful of clients for a year and that was fun. It was super mellow. My, my son was five. You'll see a recurring theme here. My son is very important to me.

Pete Neubig: Yeah.

Chapin Hemphill: He's a, he's a miracle baby. We had him when we were in our mid forties.

Pete Neubig: Oh wow.

Chapin Hemphill: And, um, yeah, he's everything. So I took the, I took a year to really hang out with him and then help do have like four or five clients, you know, and, uh, that was my, my year and a half. So my wife says to me, Hey Chapin, um, so what, what happens when you decide to, you know, stop the consulting business and sell that and exit? Well, I probably, um, you know, I, I probably put it up for sale, see if there's interest there. But essentially I, you know, I tell my clients I'm done and, you know, good luck. And she goes, and then what happens when you sell a property management business that you build? And I said, all right, we're going to, we're going to do it again. And it's like, um, she was basically the coaching business.

Pete Neubig: There's not really a lot of coaching. There's not a lot of value there where the property management business, I'm going to put you on the spot here. We didn't talk about this in the green room, but yours, give me the top, like three or four things that somebody can do today to get there, to, to sell their property management firm for the most amount of money is he said, you kind of coach on that, just give me a high level, two or three things that if somebody's listed and they should be checking off the checklist, educate

Chapin Hemphill: yourself, kind of read, read Michael Gerber's, uh, he missed revisited, read traction to sell three books by Warlow. Yes. And is that, yeah, I forget who it's by, but yeah, built to sell very small book. It's an amazing that, that last book you should read and you should implement after reading those first two books, whether you decide to sell or not, because you're building your business to be something of value. Okay. Okay. I did not invent this lean on the experts who have figured this out. So I recommend those three books then lean into technology. Technology is going to free up, um, direct labor costs, right? That's how you make some of the first way you make your business profitable is trying to figure out labor, right? That is our biggest expense. So I would do that and then make sure you have the right people on your team. I think that's critically important.

Pete Neubig: Yep.

Chapin Hemphill: I like those are three things you want a fourth.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. Give me, give me a bonus one.

Chapin Hemphill: Uh, make sure your, your processes are firmly in place. Your systems and processes are dialed in. When you have those dialed in and they're repeatable and they're awesome, your business has value.

Pete Neubig: Do you, uh, is it true what they say? The, your business is more valuable if you're not involved in it.

Chapin Hemphill: So I'm, I'm doing all the things I just talked about. I have this, this new venture with key record Boise has been a great experiment for me. I bring so little caveat. There was a second franchise I opened with a business partner. He rented New England in New Hampshire, which I did in 2019. That's still operating. Um, so I own half of that as well. So that was my second franchise. Keyrenter Boise is my third. And, um, I have, I have very, very intentionally tried to figure out how to take baby steps backwards out of my business. So I'm like, what about Bob here? Baby sits backwards.

Pete Neubig: I get that. Uh, I get that reference. Some of us, some of the folks listen though. So the goal, yeah. The goal over time is to literally, I call it taking the hats off. Yeah. I, so like when I started my property manager firm, I had all the hats, lease, lease specialists, realtor, property manager, assistant property manager, maintenance coordinator, and over time as we bring in revenue, I take off the maintenance coordinator hat, the bookkeeper hat to this hat. And so you're talking about like, I'm taking hats off. You're taking baby steps to the point where you're seeing concept, taking hats off.

Chapin Hemphill: You know, I started, for example, accounting, I've always been super close to accounting. I think it's really important to have my thumb on the pulse of this industry. So, um, accounting was always a challenge. No one could do it. Exact. I couldn't replicate myself. I ended up hiring a remote person in the Philippines to be my accountant, like permanently working for the company full time and handling all my metrics and accounting. It went against everything that was being recommended to me. That's not your next hire. You should, you should hire. It was the best hire I have done. I, my accounting is dialed in. It is really good. I, I know she's an extension of me. Um, I hope she stays with me forever. I love that there was a phenomenal hire. It's a good example of like, yeah, you have the, you have the playbook, but, but your business is unique. So what, what is the most important hat that you can take off next? For me, it was accounting. It was chewing up all my time. It was getting really complicated as we grew and I needed that. So, you know, take off the hats right now. I'm using AI to take off a lot of hats or to support my team to take the hat from me. Right. And that's the idea. Um, it's been really, really successful, especially in 2026. I've seen incredible movement in me. So the, the baby steps are becoming more like leaps, mini leaps and I'm, and they're increasing. So I can see the light. Um, and it's really exciting. It's really exciting. What's going on, right?

Pete Neubig: So is the goal for, for you, for Keyrenter Boise to be a legacy business or is this built to sell as well?

Chapin Hemphill: No, we were not, we don't have no intention of selling. It's being built to sell a hundred percent. But we have no intention of selling it.

Pete Neubig: Say that again. You're, you're building it to sell, but you're, you have no intention of selling it. Correct. People get confused with that sometimes. So talk just a little bit about that. Right. And then we, and just kind of recap it, right? Cause you, you've been talking about it, but basically what does that mean? Build to sell, but not selling it.

Chapin Hemphill: I mean, look, if you're, if, if I had always put the, that focus of making my business as valuable as I could for sale, but just doing all of the pieces, all of the things that I did to make the business better, I should be doing anyway. There's the motivation shouldn't be to get out of the business. The motivation should be, I want the best property management business in Treasure Valley, Idaho. That is the, the reason I'm building it to sell is to obtain that result.

Pete Neubig: I have a definition that I learned from an old business coach of mine. Definition of a business is a profitable enterprise that runs and grows without you. Yes. And so build to sell basically means like, you're going to put the people in place, put the systems in place, put the technology in place so that eventually you are either CEO or you can actually be founder and hire a CEO.

Chapin Hemphill: I can do it from, from the beach in Maui, you know, not a bad thing.

Pete Neubig: So I know you're, you're kind of big on AI and we can't have a podcast without talking to AI these days in 2026. So, so talk to me a little bit about how you're utilizing AI to, you know, basically build your company to sell, like how you're using it so that you're taking those baby steps that are leaps now. I'm guessing those leaps are because of AI. Is that, that's somewhat? Yes.

Chapin Hemphill: A hundred percent true. I think AI is, is yeah, we could talk for hours about this. So AI, AI is amazing. We've only started seeing the beginnings of what it can do. You have to be really careful with it. You, you, I have found there's a lot of people who tend to lean on it to think for them. I think that's where it becomes a problem. You don't want it to think for you. You want it to be an extension of you as it is today so that you can do your job better. You can do the things that are stupid and monotonous or you don't have to do them. You can have a, you know, AI do that. And so I'm trying to figure out how to make everyone's job easier to have accountability pieces in place. So I know that things are happening, but also to have training on what AI is, when you should use it, when you shouldn't. Responses to owners can be a real problem. People get lazy, let AI just take over. I believe you have to read every single one to make sure it makes sense and that it sounds like you. You can use AI for that to come up with a outline, but you really need to fill in the blanks. I'll give you an example of what I've been doing recently. I am looking at an app I just built, I vibe coded, and we are having a lot of problems with insurance compliance, landlord insurance compliance. There's not really a platform out there that tracks it like Second Nature tracks renters insurance for us, right? Nobody is really tracking insurance compliance. I mean, AppFolio says they do, but it's not robust. It's not. It is just a database, right? It's not it's not thinking for you. OK, so I said this is I've had it. I'm building something. So in the last two days, I built this whole compliance program that shows us what's coming up, what's expiring, who we don't have active insurance for. I put in buttons to request the insurance, which just has a link that can just click the link and upload their policy. Then we've got it. AI reads the policy, auto fills out, make sure it's compliant. We're named as additionally insured. It does all the things that might take, you know, an RA in the Philippines, five, ten minutes per to do. And now they're not doing any of it. They're just checking it to make sure, yeah, this is for a landlord, you know, and that's about it. I don't know, I spent maybe three thousand dollars in the last two months on Claude tokens-

Pete Neubig: Out of tokens.

Chapin Hemphill: Right. Like I have gone nuts. But it's money well spent, in my view, because I'm really figuring out what apps I can build for my team. The best part of this, and why am I not using somebody else to build my apps? Because I know exactly how I want this to work. I know exactly how my team wants it to work, and I can make it so customized to us that it is absurd. That's the problem with hiring out. They can do that, but if it's that specialized, they charge a lot more than the tokens to do that. So I know how to do it. I think it's fun.

Pete Neubig: But if somebody is listening to this and they don't know how to do it, they don't think it's fun, they can buy something that's out of the box. There's a lot more AI companies out there, like Super.

Chapin Hemphill: Super is awesome.

Pete Neubig: Shout out to Lindsey. But do you think, like, so being in the virtual assistant business, years ago the maintenance coordinator was like the hot item. Now, do you think the next hot item would be a virtual assistant that knows how to either vibe code or prompt or understand AI?

Chapin Hemphill: That's a great point. So I still have my consulting company. My consulting company now is building property management systems. I'm going to start with the franchisees. I've been asked to kind of help our franchisees build some of these things out. And so I still have that. I hired a remote person to help me. When I hired them, I realized, okay, they don't necessarily have the specific experience in the softwares that I'm talking about. They have experience with building software for other companies. It's been very, like, task oriented, do this, this, and this. And then it occurred to me, if I can teach her to use Claude, then we're all set. So I spent two days teaching her everything about Claude, walking her through how she got it pretty quickly. And now I check in with her half an hour a day, and she's building a lot of this stuff for me. So that was an aha moment of how things have changed. I didn't need to hire someone that knew all the specific softwares because you don't need to do it anymore. You just need someone curious enough with Claude and just, you know, some moxie know-how on how, you know, back ends work. So if you have any tech experience, you just understand the architecture of those things, and you're rolling. It's pretty wild, man. So how do you – the real question is how do you train that person? What do you do to train them? How do you make sure they're doing what you're asking them to do? How do you, you know, the accountability pieces? And there's a lot to that. But to me, that's like, yeah, we'll figure that out. It's important we'll figure it out. But the main thing is that we are just in a different world, and, man, the learning curve is a different – that's a different graph now for everyone.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. So are you still doing some coaching on the side, or are you – I coach for the franchise.

Chapin Hemphill: So franchisees that want some coaching from me, they can get that.

Pete Neubig: Got it. But if somebody just wanted to pick your brain on something, what's the best way?

Chapin Hemphill: I freely give away a lot of my information just because I like to share it. I don't – you know, to me, it's like you'll figure out how to build this anyway. I'm not going to hide anything because it's all – we're a community. I think when we start sharing ideas, good things happen.

Pete Neubig: So what's the best way to contact you?

Chapin Hemphill: I'm on LinkedIn most of the time with social media. But you can come to our website, keyrenterboise.com. I'm also Chapin, Chapin@keyrenterboise.com is my direct email.

Pete Neubig: Awesome. So if you are – just wanted to pick Chapin's brain about what the – how to use virtual – how to use AI to – what's the next tool that AI, what's something in your business that AI can use? Go ahead and pick his brain. He's like – I met Chapin at Tony Cline's Onyx retreat, and he's just a wealth of knowledge and a giver of knowledge. So appreciate that. And that's a big thing about NARPM, right? NARPM, that whole culture is giving, and you definitely embody that culture.

Chapin Hemphill: It's a great organization, and this is a great podcast, Pete. I appreciate that you do this. I know it's a lot of work, and thank you for the invite.

Pete Neubig: I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you for being on. If you are listening to this and you're not a NARPM member, shame on you. Go to NARPM, narpm.org, or give them a call at 800-782-3452. And if you just happen to be looking for a remote team member, give us a try, vpmsolutions.com or email me, pete@vpmsolutions.com. It's free. You don't have to – it's no subscription model. Give us a shout.

Chapin Hemphill: A testimonial for VPM Solutions. They are outstanding.

Pete Neubig: Oh, thank you. That's a paid promotion right there. All right, Chapin, thanks so much for being here. Thanks, everybody. We'll see you soon.