Rental Application Fraud Is Getting Harder to Catch: Here’s What’s Changing | Rob Whiting

A Podcast | Rob Whiting

Pete Neubig: Welcome everybody to another new exciting episode of the NARPM Radio Podcast. I am your host Pete Neubig, the voice of NARPM. Today my guest is Rob Whiting, founder and CEO of Boom. Boom has been making a big splash in our industry, so if you have not heard of Boom, shame on you, you should have. They offer applicant screening, rent reporting tools that integrate with your property management software, and now they've just launched their latest product, which is a CRM, which we'll talk to Rob about. Rob, thanks so much for being here.

Rob Whiting: Thanks, thanks Pete. Yeah, it's a privilege, definitely. We've talked about it a lot, and I've never made it high enough on the guest list, I think. You've got a lot of important people who've come on here before me, so it's definitely nice.

Pete Neubig: None more than important than the person I'm talking to. So, you know, it's funny, Rob, you and I broke into this industry around the same time with Boom and with VPM, and so tell me why you curated Boom, and how did you get started?

Rob Whiting: So, yeah, I mean, it's helpful to, I mean, my quick backstory in the very short summary is I generally have been interested in the kind of cost buckets that impact everyday Americans, right? Housing, health, and education. I did something in undergrad in the education space. I've done some work in the health care space, and I did another business over in India, and I grew that business. Good business, not a great business. Ultimately, I wasn't ready to settle down long-term in India. Came back, was looking at what I was going to build next, and I was really interested in the housing space, and financial services more broadly, and how those two intersected. So I was in this, I was very close to going to business school. My dad was sorely disappointed that I didn't enroll, because it was a good school. Ultimately, my wife enrolled, so I was able to tag along with her, and ride her coattails for a little bit, and participate in the, you know, the network. But during that time, I instead decided to go into the IDMAs, and, you know, I would, it was, you call it the IDMAs, it kind of looked a little bit like sadness for a couple years. What am I gonna do with my life? What am I gonna work on if I'm not going to business school? I'm following this, like, standard path that, you know, ex-consultants go down, and I worked at BCG. What am I gonna do? And so I was, like, figuring out what I was gonna work on, housing, financial services, those were interesting to me, and then COVID started. And when COVID started, my two brothers, they had lost their jobs, because they're, I'm from the Jacksonville, Florida area, right on Amelia Island, where BrokerOwner was a couple years ago, actually. That was my first NARPM event, actually. BrokerOwner at, in my hometown. And, you know, they lost their jobs.

Pete Neubig: Funny enough, that was VPM's first event, as well.

Rob Whiting: Oh, there you go. There you go. The start of the gold gloves. So, you know, when COVID started, all the restaurants shut down. My brothers are bar backs, servers in the Jacksonville area, and I was like, well, I'll help you. I'm trying to figure out what to do in the housing space. You needed a new, you couldn't afford, you know, you need a new job, but you also need a new rental that you can afford. So I'm gonna go down the path with you, help you find your next rental. I still rent in Austin, because Austin's expensive, and, you know, 15, 16 years post-graduation, I'm still a renter. So, and I'm kind of proud of that, because I'm building a company in the rental space. And, you know, I saw a lot of the pain points that they encounter, which, you know, I'm a Class A-ish type renter. They're a bit more Class B, Class C, right? So I saw a lot of the pain points that they encountered, bad credit, errors in their credit report, struggle with the application process. And really, we started, you know, I started in their credit reporting space, because I saw they struggled with credit, and I saw the existing solutions in the space. And so we built a V1, I mean, a very embarrassing V1 rent reporting solution, which actually was direct to consumer, linked with your bank, and things like that. And we were fortunate enough to get a little bit of investment from the CEO of the seat, well, mainly the CTO of Plaid at the time, was our biggest investor. And that we were kind of off the races, very quickly. And from there, we, we got interested in property managers. And so they kind of expanded from there. But the original idea was like, how do we just make renting easier? And there's a lot of paper cuts along the journey. And starting from the renter point of view, but obviously, for many things in the real estate space, you need to go to the property manager to actually enact a lot of change in the space. And so that was kind of where it started was just a desire to do something really related to what I've seen from family and personal experiences. But you know, I was already looking at the space.

Pete Neubig: We've come a long way from paper applications, and people coming into your office and dropping those off.

Rob Whiting: Still see it, still see it, though. We also do a lot of work in the manufactured housing space. And you, we have a...

Pete Neubig: They're about a decade behind.

Rob Whiting: They're single families kind of behind multifamily, but then manufactured housing is even behind single family, right, in terms of tech adoption and modernization.

Pete Neubig: So what do you see the biggest challenges today for property managers when it comes to application processing?

Rob Whiting: I would say, so I would say there's a few things. The big ones. So first is, I'll highlight a few. So number one, communication and workflows. That's like a big one. So all how that communication works. Two is underwriting. And three is fraud and data and quality and kind of the threat of AI. So the first one, which is really around workflows and communications, we had a big VC Boom. We were part of it, right? 2017 to 2022, there was a lot of money flowing in and a lot of new tech, new prop tech companies came about. And we were one of them. And a lot of property managers rushed to adopt those. And now you've got a bunch of tools and a bunch of ways to communicate with prospects and a lot of interfaces for property managers to deal with, to like interact with. I think that's what we're attracting a bit from that. But we've seen that that creates handoffs and friction and things like that. And so in the leasing experience, it's increasingly what's happened the last two to three years. We've seen an uptick in supply in the market. And so now, whereas it used to be all about owner leads, now it's kind of also about renter leads, too. And those handoffs enable drop off or they create these friction points and leakage. And so I would say that's one of the big ones and is really a part of Boom CRM and why we built that. So kind of leakage and workflows and how those handoffs happen is a big one. The second is underwriting. I can't tell you how many times I've seen, like you ask people what their underwriting guidelines are. And it's three times income to rent. They first will say, you know, the typical, the standard, right? And the standard is usually like three times income to rent, 650 credit score. And then you start digging in and like, well, what if they have no felonies, no sex offender? And so the very kind of rules of thumb. But then you start playing around with extremes with them as a thought experiment, because I want to, we, when we work with partners, we implement their criteria. And it's not that black and white because you often say, well, what if their income to rent ratio was four and a half times, but their credit score is 649? Is that someone you'd accept? Yeah. Yeah, we would definitely, you know, it's right on the margin, but the income is way higher. So these trade-offs, there are these gradients, right? When you start playing with these different factors and most of the scorecards or the things that you'll see out there are very much like, yes, no, right. Did we pass this? Did we not? And that doesn't really handle for that nuance. And so with this underwriting element, you see a lot of gut decisions happening. You see a lot of, I think, missed opportunities, right? If you, if everyone is at three times income to rent, 650 credit score, there's probably some arbitrage at 2.99 and 649, right? For example. And so these are, they have been implemented as static solutions that don't really account for nuance. And then it leaves it to a VA or an escalation to the broker owner to actually, on a case by case basis, review these applications. And that just opens yourself up to error, opens yourself up to fair housing questions. So that's kind of the second one is we've implemented really today, I've seen in the industry, really rudimentary underwriting of applications. And the third big threat is the data is getting harder in two areas. Number one is the obvious one, the AI, right? It's like we're generating, the docs are getting better. I'm seeing really good fraud come out. I think good, I mean, well done fraud, right? From the naked eye, 12 months ago, you would have been able to pick it out. Now it's getting much harder and it's coming in higher volumes. The second part that's making it difficult is we are seeing more redaction of data. Like that's making the underwriting more difficult is at the county and state level is we're seeing more and more they're stealing records or they're, you can only match based on full name, date of birth, for example. But they're only giving you less data to match on. And we see obviously California is notoriously tricky, but we're seeing it get tricky even in places like North Carolina, which just requires better hit logic and better matching. So all to say, like there's a few factors that it's getting harder to get leads and get renter leads and bring them in. And you're making a lot of friction that we've self-introduced through different products. At the same time, it's getting harder once you do get them to underwrite them really well. And so those are some of the pain points that we typically see.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. One of the challenges that we had was the, you know, just feeling just getting somebody to fill out the application. Right. So there's this like you want everything, but then you have a very small completion rate and then you lose potentially really good renters. But then if I only ask for the bare minimums, then I don't have enough data to make that decision. So there's always a happy medium. Do you guys kind of work with your clients to kind of have you guys figured out what the right length of that application is?

Rob Whiting: We've started. I mean, it's really dependent and it's one of those things where there's no there's no right answer to this. Right. And it depends on what market you're in. And I actually was just talking with someone about this before I was on a panel at NRHC, which is for the kind of vertically integrated operators like the American Homes for Rent, which we work for, which we work with, is some there's a word of there's a kind of some people say we just don't accept offer letters or you must link a bank. We don't accept documents because of potential fraud. And I think it really depends on the market that you're in on, to your point, how stringent you can be and how much you collect up front versus how much you're willing to to backload and wait until they cross the line. And I'm willing to document chase or chase down. And what it depends on is what market are you in? If you're in Dallas where you're oversupplied or you're in Austin, you need leads and you might be more willing to accept a little less information up front in order to get the application in and then deal with the chasing after that. Once you've got the submitted app and the money for the application fee versus what we see much more often in California is double, I call it like double or sometimes even triple income verification. We want bank linking and I want to collect pay stubs and I want to call the employer. So I want like three layers of income verification. And I see that more in California, I think, because there's more fraud. There's a lot of fraud in California. There's squatters. There's a lot of problems there. But also there's a housing shortage. So I think there is a little bit more leverage that the property managers might have. Whereas in Dallas, like I'm hungry for leads. Right. And I maybe need to be a little bit more flexible. So you'll see people not doing five years of housing history, but doing one year of housing history in these like oversupplied markets.

Pete Neubig: Are you seeing people actually change their requirements based on market conditions?

Rob Whiting: No, but we're coaching them a little bit. You know, it's like -

Pete Neubig: Your opinion should be yes. Right. If it's harder to rent, you should maybe lax it on the front end. But you can still do it. You still do all do the back end checking.

Rob Whiting: Yeah, that's so. Yeah, exactly. So one of the big things is, is there. So we don't we don't see people changing much. And I think we're trying to bring data to that. And what we're doing is we're showing their application submission rate compared to our P50 or our median across our entire broader Boom portfolio of operators. We work.

Pete Neubig: That's that's that's valuable.

Rob Whiting: Like your way, your way lower because your application's 30 percent longer with three layers of verification on income. And you're asking for five years of housing history. So we're trying to guide, but we're, you know, it's the point of view. And often some of private managers and broker owners are selling this as a service like, hey, we're extra rigorous and we deal with high end homes, for example. But, yeah, I mean, I think we're we're seeing as we get in, we're coaching it. But there are some strong held opinions, for sure.

Pete Neubig: Do you do you also have data on the back end where if I do lower my requirements, is there do you guys deal with the eviction side of things? I do know of that that application or that renter was successful in their one year lease and or or they they moved out before they broke the lease. So they had to get evicted because, you know, you got the front end data, which is which is awesome because no one's ever had that before. Right. But that, you know, I know as a when I was a property manager, the biggest challenge or question I had is like, look, if we lax our requirements to get people in, are we just creating a much bigger problem on the back end?

Rob Whiting: So it's a great question. And this is I'll give you one short answer and then I'll give you two examples to illustrate kind of where we're headed. So the short answer is we do this on an a la carte property manager by property manager basis and we analyze their portfolio. So but we have something dynamic that's coming in this area, Pete, which will give projections on how this will impact the portfolio if you open the aperture or you tighten the tighten the spigot, so to speak. But when you anyone who's ever done Facebook and maybe people have done Facebook ads back in the day, you know, I haven't been in meta platform in a while. I leave my marketing team to do that. But you could target based on a hey, I want. Twenty five to thirty five year old women in Austin who do yoga, who live in a one mile radius of downtown city center, right, hyper targeted and you've got these like tight criteria, you're going to pay higher, you're going to have a higher like that's going to be a high conversion rate for your ad potentially, but it's going to cost more. Right. And so the same thing with application targeting is we can be much tighter and have a higher income threshold and a higher credit threshold or, you know, no, no evictions in the last 15 years instead of seven years, for example. But then you're going to you might be waiting longer and the vacancy rate might go up. So that's I think where the kind of the model, the way to think about it, the closest we've come in the industry to this as a second example is the TransUnion resident score. The TransUnion, people who don't know, people think credit score is a credit score. There's Vantage and there's FICO, but then TransUnion made something which is a derivative of the Vantage score and it's a resident score and the resident score is a rental specific credit score. And it was created to predict a bad debt event, either eviction or a it's like a I think it's over 30 days over a certain dollar amount. And so what they did, but what it was and they refresh it every few every few years, they take a bunch of bunch of LexisNexis eviction data and then they take a bunch of rent roll data, I think mainly from like Yardi or someone, they get some property managers to opt into the study and then they go look at their credit score when they applied their Vantage score and then they go look at the outcome, the rental outcome, and they create a derivative score of like based on their credit score of entering what's the bad debt outcome event. They can look at the whole credit report of all the debts and everything. But these are point in time analyses.

Pete Neubig: And it's probably a very small percentage of all the renters out there, but it's still something done on static data.

Rob Whiting: And imagine if you could do this specific to your portfolio, knowing the vacancy rate of my portfolio, knowing, you know, how hungry I am to fill these to fill these homes, it can be very different. And so and the economy is changing, you know, things like that. So that, I think, is where we're headed. We kind of just on an a la carte basis and just to build the muscle. And that's so we have something more, more dynamic and real time coming.

Pete Neubig: Yeah, this is just another example of being able to leverage data to make this to make business decisions.

Rob Whiting: Right.

Pete Neubig: In the past, we didn't have all that stuff. So we just had a gut feeling like, hey, it's on the market for X amount of days. The markets, you know, the MLS tells us the market is a buyer's market or a renter's market. So we're just going to go ahead and make some changes.

Rob Whiting: Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent.

Pete Neubig: During the application process, where do you see the biggest like slowdown where, you know, we're waiting on a prospective renter to to give it like, is it like, hey, we're asking for driver's license or asking for additional information and that takes the longest time? Or is it just completing the app? You guys, you guys see any, any, you know, are you guys starting to see any any data that that shows like, hey, this is where the, you know, the challenges of getting this application across the finish line?

Rob Whiting: Well, it's. Yeah, it's a great it's a great question, I would highlight three of the kind of like the standard e-commerce things you would expect, right, it's the biggest, biggest milestone. Well, definitely. So working backwards, it's checkout, right? People see the checkout, it's income verifications, identity verifications. Those are three kind of big milestones. And we do all of our verifications up front. There is some other platforms out there that will backload that all to the after the checkout. And it kind of saves some money for the platform. We don't believe that's just a tenant, central tenant of how we believe the approach should be. It should be done up front. And we eat the cost if they don't check out. So we're heavily incentivized to make this a super seamless funnel. So the product manager only gets charged if you get an application fee. But those are the three big checkpoints. One of the big milestones and where you get all the low intent, the low intent users are before identity verification. Once someone completes identity verification with us, we see a submitted application 88 percent of the time. And so this is a really high indicator of a high intent user and someone who's going to make it to the finish line. And another reason why we built Boom CRM is because we reused the identity verification that was already done. And this is the same industry grade identity verification done for the tour that's done as part of the application. We append it with more data when they go through the full application. But then you finish your tour, you've already done the big milestone and your app's almost kind of like halfway done. And now you've hit that big milestone and now you're in a much cleaner through line to the finish line at the checkout. So those are the big milestones. Getting that identity one is the big one. And then the other two other things that do slow down applications processing at the end, which are often backloaded and sometimes optional, are rental history verification, which people are, we see varying opinions about them and some people fully believe in them. And in the broker owner space, we see it much more commonly, but they can take longer. And then there's the animal screening as those sometimes are left. And those typically are left. We often recommend you do that at the time of decision so that you don't slow down the rest of the processing. So, but yeah.

Pete Neubig: All right. I'm going to put you on the spot here. There's there's always been a discussion around, do I do I do the best app or do I take the first come first serve? And I know Boom doesn't really have a dog in the fight here, but would love to get your opinion. You know, you've worked with all these property managers. What do you think is the best methodology? Is it a first app that hits the criteria I take? I don't do the other ones. I don't process the other ones. Or do I process all of them and I'm doing a fiduciary responsibility to my owner and I select the best one?

Rob Whiting: \Well, it's a great question. So first come first serve or best app. Right. I'm going to I think this is as much simplified debate if you use a platform like Boom. The answer is first come first serve. Legally, I think in almost all, maybe I'll have to go check with our with our team. But first come first serve is like legally you need to do that. They meet your criteria from fair housing perspective. You need to accept the first application that comes through that's completed. What has historically happened, Pete, to your point is applications took so long to do all this paper tracing. It's like you get all these apps, they self-attest all this data, and then you decide which one you kind of like. They're coming in quicker because you don't do those verifications up front, like I mentioned. And so you're kind of choosing which one to process. And maybe now you're requesting documents, so you're going back and these might take after checkout. Now somebody else might have given you those documents. They can get first. Right. And so we simplify that a lot with Boom. It's like and we get this a lot of West Coast operators who first because of the housing shortages on the West Coast and the Washingtons and the California, they're like, oh, well, we're going to spend a lot of money on Boom because we're going to do all the applications. And, you know, then first come first serve, like I need to not be able to run the identity or verification of the income verification. And we say, look, our applications are cheap enough. You should just have them do the identity and income, collect the application fee. You're going to process these so quickly with us. Our average turnaround time on applications is less than 24 hours. Like you'll get all the results. You'll get the results instantly. But then you may want to ask them if they have a guarantor. Like there might be other reasons. You might be waiting on a rental fee verification, but full end to end, actually making decisions in the same day. And so there isn't that backlog that they were used to. Like, what am I going to do with this backlog? You just don't have it because the unit comes off the market quick enough and you find that first app and you're able to just process them one by one as they come in. And if they don't qualify, you just refund them. And usually we're seeing people charged in California around 60 bucks or so. And so our applications are cheap enough where it makes up. Yeah, I mean, I can go into a lot more. We can talk a long time about that, but that's like high level.

Pete Neubig: One of the challenges that I had, this is back in the day. This is before before Boom was, you know, we would somebody would fill out the app and now they have everything looks good. But now we're waiting on tenant verification or employee verification. And that could take days and we would lose people. So what we implemented was like, hey, if it's in that green bucket, why you talked about what if they have 640 score and four times if they're in the green bucket, we just we didn't even go in and get the extra the extra information because we knew like, hey, let's let's act quickly. And if they're in kind of in the the gray bucket, then we would take our time and we'd get that extra that extra information. And we only would and we would not run another app until until we, you know, until we got if we had a full app, then we would not run other apps. If we didn't have a full app, we would run we'd run other apps. And of course, the challenge there is, OK, so now I got the first person who gave me the full app and now these other people paid for their app. And what we would do is we just refund the money or we would try to put them in another house if we had a house that's close by.

Rob Whiting: Yeah, it's not worth like to be kind of penny wise, pound foolish, like a couple of dollars on app fees, they get the right renter in, do the right thing by your applicants and often they can qualify for another unit. But again, yeah, we're processing quick enough where you don't see that backlog where you're refunding five or six applications before you're able to process the first one. To your point on the rentals, your verifications, that's often how we see it used is we kick those off immediately regardless. And, you know, you try to you want to get something back. But if it is a clean application where you see clearly it's all the criteria of flying colors, there's no indications of fraud that we've detected. You'll just move forward without it. And anything you hear back is a bonus. But yeah.

Pete Neubig: Now, one of the challenges that we had was, you know, we get all these people that were excited, put in applications and I'd get one person and then I would lose all the other people and they were not in any kind of drip or any kind of CRM or. And so now I have a house that's, you know, in the next zip code over or just a few blocks away. And my team like, you know, doesn't even know that that person that was applying applied for, you know, one, two, three Elm and I have one, two, three Oak like literally around the corner. So tell me how how your Serum product works and how that can that help that situation?

Rob Whiting: Yeah, so we have flows today where you can if you decline someone, they can get offered other units or homes that they might qualify for. And so you're always able to easily you have that, but you're also always able to easily move applicants between homes. And the nice thing with them is the data moves with them. And so just because they were the unit was taken off the market or, you know, they weren't they weren't the first one to get it. The data will recalculate as you move it across the portfolio, a cheaper unit or a different one, and they can still qualify for those. So this is, yeah, a known like especially if you have a decent sized portfolio, you know, more than 50 or 60, you often have another home in the market that's not too far away that they might qualify for.

Pete Neubig: And so Boom would help me like identify, hey, this home is in this person's area.

Rob Whiting: Exactly. Because this is the way we've we've systematized our criteria. It gives really granular view across each unit of where someone might qualify for. So, yeah, so that's like one of the pieces of them is to be able to move people seamlessly and understand where they qualify for.

Pete Neubig: So you touched on fraud earlier. Let's talk a little bit more about that. What what do you see that's happening out there more? And how does Boom help, you know, have the property managers fight the good fight against fraud? Because, man, when it happens, it is a pain in the, you know what, to get somebody out.

Rob Whiting: Yeah. Yeah, I would say so zooming out fraud lives in a bunch of places and it's commonly the way you when you think about is the the income docs. Right. But it can be in many places. It can be in identity verification. It can be in income. And when I say income, it's not just documents. It's I'm linking somebody else's bank account, not my own. It can be in housing history, self-attesting other homes that you didn't live at in order to avoid a lookup for an eviction on that address. It can be on a falsified credit report. So I have a fake falsified identity and I use that to grab another credit report, which shows a nice 690 credit score with no no debts and our defaults. And so there's a there's and then there's animal screening. Obviously, there's some things that happen there as well. So a bunch of different buckets. I would say the hot the hotbeds are obviously a few different areas on income and really around documents. Big ones that we're seeing. We see if you look at the take income as a broad bucket, many different types of income. You have W-2, you have 1099, you have government benefit letters, you have offer letters, you have a bunch. Right.

Pete Neubig: And you even have IRS docs. Right. You have to like tax returns, tax returns.

Rob Whiting: Yeah. Tax returns are a different type of way to verify a type of income. So that's like a we would call a method of verification. There's sources of income or types of income. And then there's methods of verification. I can verify an income by calling an employer. That's kind of like what the work number is a little bit to some extent. It's a digital version of that. So, yeah, so the tax returns are a type of verification method. Within all of those income types, the ones we'll see within verifications across those income types, it's usually documents is where you see it most. And out of the documents, we see – I'd have to go get the number, but I believe it's north of 60% of all income documents submitted are pay stubs. We accept pay stubs, W-2s, bank statements, and government benefit letters, and we've got a pilot out for offer letters as well. But the vast majority of income docs are pay stubs, and that's where we see a – it's close to a – I think it's in the 10% to 15% fraud rate in those documents specifically.

Pete Neubig: People are sorting their pay stubs.

Rob Whiting: Where there's fraud indicators, and there's gradations of fraud, right? To give you an example, a small business employer might create their pay stubs on a Word document. So it's not necessarily fraud, but one of the indicators of fraud is, like, this pay stub was generated on Microsoft Word, and there's a few other pieces of metadata, but it happened to be self-employed. So really teasing that out, we provide a grading scale of likeliness of fraud, but where there is any indication of gradation is the pay stubs is where you see most of it. Because of that nature of a small business or those sorts of things, but also that is where a lot of the fraud lives. Because if you do fraudulent bank statements, then the property manager will say, well, why don't you just link your bank, right? If you can generate bank statements, link your bank. So I think you see a lot more fraud happening in pay stubs where there's fewer standard formats than there are bank statements like Wells Fargo where you've got these big entities.

Pete Neubig: Now, when you bring on new customers, what's one thing that they should ask you but they don't?

Rob Whiting: I would say, and I don't see this very much. I actually sometimes even make it a point to set up a separate call with partners who they didn't even talk to me during the sales process. I'm like, hey, I just want to, like, jump on. I heard you ask some good questions. The big thing that I would be asking is, as a property manager, if I'm evaluating tech, is who is the company behind this software? It's not like just this feature. Sometimes I hear just like feature, feature, feature. Well, what is the roadmap? What is the capital source behind you? Who are you as a person? Are you the founder, the original founder, still building this thing, still, like, energized to build it every day? Are you hiring, like, top-class people? Are you really, like, strong, like, thoughtful people? And what platform and ecosystem are you investing in? Because I see a lot of times people are just evaluating based on features and not on the platform and the team behind it. And so there's no, like, number, I guess, but sometimes you can understand the quality of the person and the team and the company if you ask the right questions or you even ask to speak to me. You know, like, I really want to talk to Rob, and I will happily jump on the phone. And I usually just share my cell phone number with most customers. I know at NARPM, that's like, don't share your cell phone.

Pete Neubig: Not with residents.

Rob Whiting: Definitely not with residents. I've also heard just, you know.

Pete Neubig: I'm assuming nobody that's put in an application and got your cell phone number, but.

Rob Whiting: \Not mine, no. But the property managers, the partners that we work with, yeah, definitely. But I'll call, I call applicants. I'll be like, hey, I heard you had some questions or you had a hard time on this part. And, like, I personally will talk to, I've done it twice in my career of doing what I call applicants. And I say, hey, I think you had a terrible experience. I'm sorry. I'm going to personally refund you and the property manager, and we're working on this, right? And, yeah, did it on Saturday. And at least one of them was over the weekend.

Pete Neubig: The life of a founder. There is no such thing as weekends. It's just two more working days till Monday.

Rob Whiting: That's right. That's just catch up and planning.

Pete Neubig: Rob, if somebody was interested to learn more about Boom, where can they go?

Rob Whiting: Two options. We've got a little, you go on our website, BoomPay.app You still got the B-O-O-M-P-A-Y.app. There's a talk to sales button there that will get routed to the right person. You can also just shoot me an email at Rob@BoomPay.app. So either of those.

Pete Neubig: And if you're listening to this and you're not a NARPM member, shame on you. Go to NARPM, N-A-R-P-M dot O-R-G, or give them a call at 800-782-3452. And if you are interested in finding some remote team members to process those apps for you, shoot me an email, pete@vpmsolutions.com or just go to vpmsolutions.com. And you can access over 46,000 people looking for work in the product management space. Rob, thanks so much for being here.

Rob Whiting: Thanks Pete.