Right People, Right Seats: A Property Management Turnaround Story | Rob Kazan

A Podcast | Rob Kazen

Pete Neubig: Welcome, everybody, to the NARPM Radio Podcast. I'm your host, Pete Neubig, the voice of NARPM. And I have a good buddy of mine. We call him the Landman, Ron Kazan, out of Fort Worth, Texas. He's the broker and CEO of First Choice Property Management. He has nearly two decades in property management industry, passionate about building efficient teams, leveraging AI to improve operations and helping property owners protect and grow their investments through exceptional management. And his dad, Darrell Kazan, NARPM has a special award.

Rob Kazan: Scholarship.

Pete Neubig: Scholarship. Thank you. A special scholarship for NARPM.

Rob Kazan: Designations.

Pete Neubig: For NARPM Designations. And I actually knew Darrell, and God bless him and his family. He was a great man, and he was super fun, by the way, Rob. So thanks, Rob.

Rob Kazan: I know. We all miss him.

Pete Neubig: Thanks for being here, Rob. Appreciate you, man.

Rob Kazan: Thank you. Thank you, Pete. Love every opportunity I have to spend with you, and even if it's over a computer, whatever, man. It just feels good every time.

Pete Neubig: So Rob and I, we've known each other for quite some time, but we were at Tony Cline's Onyx event a year ago in 2025. And that's where we really got to just know each other. When you're in a very small event like that for over three days, three or four days, you get to know people. And I think, Rob, I think you and I really clicked.

Rob Kazan: Dare we say we bonded?

Pete Neubig: We can say that. Yeah, we're men. We bonded like men, right? But I also remember that you had a lot of struggles in your business at the time. And we touch base here and there, but when I saw you again at the Onyx retreat in, I think it was, what was it, May of this year? May or June? I forget. I think it was May this year. June?

Rob Kazan: I don't know. Hell, every day, whatever. May or June, pick one.

Pete Neubig: I can't remember yesterday, let alone a month ago.

Rob Kazan: It was June. It was June.

Pete Neubig: All right. But you basically told me that all the challenge you had gone. Within a year, your whole life and your business had done a 180. So for our listeners out there, can you talk a little bit about what the business looked like in 2025, early 2025? And then talk a little bit about what it looks like today. And then I want to talk about your mind shift, what you've done like operationally, all those things. But just talk a little bit about what First Choice looked like a year ago.

Rob Kazan: A year ago, First Choice looked like we had zero AI within First Choice. I was still running the operations and assuming the operations manager role. I'm still trying to motivate our growth through our BDM. Let's see here. We were still a portfolio based company, meaning our property managers basically handled most everything. I think we had brought... I'm sorry, we did. Our property managers had an assistant property manager to help them out. So we had three property managers. And we were still struggling. Even as long as this company's been in existence, my dad, great guy, built a great company, got me in here learning the inner workings. But when he passed away, I really wasn't expecting it. I wasn't prepared for it whatsoever. So through that timeframe, I've had to learn so much. But I was still always in a fog. I never really fully understanded the business aspect of it, what that meant, what I was hearing at the NARFM conferences from a lot of our colleagues through the years. I heard it, but it just never set in. All this information that was out there, I just never put it together. So looking back, we ran a successful company. Even as loosely as we were running it, it's always been a great success. But I didn't realize that there was another level of success out there because I didn't know how I was supposed to be within this company. I was just trying to keep the pieces of the puzzle together, make sure the paychecks went out the door, making sure that the owners were taken care of. You just kind of lose sight of what a business actually should run like.

Pete Neubig: Let me ask you this. What did a day in life look like for you back then?

Rob Kazan: Lost, to be honest with you. I try to be a people person. So I'm trying to motivate my team in the way that I know how, which I definitely needed a heck of a lot of improvements in that leadership aspect. I walked around lost for many, many years after my dad passed away. Even in the moments that I thought I had things together, I was still lost. Meaning, I had this company. I had this potential here. My wife's working here. Again, we're looking back at what we're doing. Everything seems good operationally, but we knew that there was holes in our dam. And it was just a monumental affair, just even trying to fix one little one because you kind of try and pull yourself out of operations real quick to fix that. And then the operations is crumbling real quick. So it's just like a mad circle going on.

Pete Neubig: Would you say that you were working in the business last year, or were you kind of working more on the business, but then had to jump in when stuff would kind of fall through?

Rob Kazan: I was still stuck in the business where I couldn't. My head was never out of these clouds enough for me to actually see what was going on. So I was kind of sunk. I knew what I needed to do, or I actually had a slight idea that I needed to get out of the way in a sense or delegate responsibility because I was holding all the responsibility myself. Because I thought that's just how it had to be done. My dad, when I watched him for the years I was here, that's how he did it. He was just responsible for everything. If I made a mistake, he's responsible. Or he owned up to it.

Pete Neubig: So holding on to a lot of things, not letting go. Were you working lots of hours a year ago?

Rob Kazan: Oh, yeah. Well, okay. So I wanted to be that operator that I could sit there and go fish whenever I want and go off-roading and do all these fun things with my kids and stuff. But I knew I couldn't detach my mind from it because I knew when I get back, I'd have a boatload of things. It'd take me two, three weeks just to catch up. I was constant in arrears with all my tasks and duties and stuff like that. So I was chasing my ass all day long for a long time. So yeah, I never really had a grip on things totally.

Pete Neubig: What would you say your stress level was back then, a year ago?

Rob Kazan: Oh my God, I had blood pressure issues. I felt like I was starting to build anxiety on things. It was getting more and more to the point where I didn't want to deal with the hard stuff no more because I couldn't. It was just like if an owner was upset, I'd be like, fire him, get him out of here. There was no flexibility. Just get him off the table so I don't have to deal with him no more. I don't think that was the right way to do it. So yeah, definitely struggling.

Pete Neubig: Not to get too personal, but how was your relationship with Leslie, your wife at the office? Was it still pretty solid or was it getting contentious at some points or what'd that look like?

Rob Kazan: Luckily for us, and I hear the total opposite, we've always been able to work well with each other. She had her part, I had mine. We had envisioned within this company that we were just going to do this as partners. She was going to do her part and I was going to do my part. But we started realizing that we weren't even equipped personality-wise to be these people that needed to run this company. So we realized that we needed somebody inside the company that could handle all that flow of the communication and a lot of the operational decision-making. But we were handling it, but some of us aren't built to be business operators. And I really felt like I was actually that person that no matter how hard I tried, it just seemed to be a lot more difficult and a lot more difficult every day. But through all that to your question, Leslie and I have always been solid. I mean, yeah, did we have our moments here and there? Sure. And it would sometimes carry over at the house because we've been working together for a long time. We play together. We do everything together. I think now we're like, all right, you need to take a couple days off, go with your mom, have a trip to Savannah or something like that, or go with your friends. Please, by all means. And when we get back together, everything's great. So I guess looking back, there might've been a little bit of tension, but it wasn't anything that was just uncontrolled. I think that one thing that we knew was we need to keep that part of it together for it to make any sense. So we did our best.

Pete Neubig: And the team, were they under a lot of stress? Did you have to talk to them? Were they putting a lot of hours in? Talk to me about the team and that relationship with them and just what their day looked like.

Rob Kazan: Yeah. Because I mean, as with any business, especially in property management, we got these great ideas. We know in our mind that it should work. And then you start plugging it in the team. Well, the stress was brought on by me because I was never a good implementer. I was great at the vision. And I don't even think I was good at casting that vision onto my team. But to get in there and actually implement the things that need to get implemented was stuck on my plate because I didn't want to delegate that because I felt like it was always my responsibility, but I was no good at it. I was no good at it. So that was the pressure getting put on the team. I have all these ideas and we'd half-ass implement something and it was just never fully thought through from end to end. So that was definitely a pressure on my team.

Pete Neubig: Created frustration, created pressure, which created stress. I'm guessing it created longer hours for them.

Rob Kazan: Yeah. Nights and weekends, just trying to filter through the BS.

Pete Neubig: So now talk to me about what the business looks like today. Tell me what your role is. What is a day in the life of your role? What does the team look like? Talk a little bit about that. All right.

Rob Kazan: So my being in NARPM for as long as I have, and it was not under the shadow of my dad, but he's the one that brought me in and I met all his friends and call out to all you guys, Bart, all you guys, everybody that I met through it. And all the ideas that we talked about, they were all in my head, but I was doing nothing with them. I wasn't learning from everybody that was kind of teaching me through our conversations and hints and things like that. I was watching them make changes and improve their businesses and such, but we were still struggling in the same rut, not making any decent changes that were very impactful until, and I'm going to call out Tony Klein, because if truth be told, he helped me realize who I was. My mind works like I'm over here. I'm over here. I'm over here. It's hard for me to focus. Somehow, someway, Tony was able to kind of just reel all that in and focus and then get me to understand what I had and what I could do with it and then how to find interest that I had lost in it again. So, because there was a period of time where I was checked out. I was like, I don't even care what happens over there. I'll just, you know, I'll manage it. And that's what I've been doing. I just accepted that was going to be the rest of my life.

Pete Neubig: You were burnt out.

Rob Kazan: Oh yeah, for sure. Absolutely. I mean, there's probably a couple of podcasts out there that go deep into that burnout.

Pete Neubig: So, I want to talk though, like what the business looks like today. And then I want to talk about the journey of how you got there, right? So, we kind of painted a picture a year ago, right? Then you meet Tony and you go through this transformation, which we're going to talk about, but I want to paint a picture because what you did and how you changed your business in a year is nothing short of just, you know, miraculous to be honest with you. It really is amazing. When you started telling me about the business, I'm like, holy crap, like you did a lot in a year and a lot of it has to do with your growth. And I want to talk about that, but let's just talk about like, tell me about like the team. Are they still working crazy hours? Are they stressed out? Did you change portfolio to departmental? Like what did you do? Tell me a little bit about you, like what do you do all day long? Like now you're more of a visionary out of the business. Talk about that.

Rob Kazan: Okay. So, perfect. So, where we're at right now is we went from a portfolio to a pod structure within the last year. We brought in AI tools and I mean, can I say Vendaroo here? Because they, you know, we brought in their program or whatever, their AI tool to manage all of our maintenance chaos, which turned out really great for us. So, that was one of the other good moves that I made within my business. Of course, everybody's business is different. You all run them and do whatever you want, but that worked for us. So, and then, you know, just listening to what Tony had to tell me and then considering everything right there, I realized that I was a plug in the company. I was keeping it from growing. I was keeping it from progressing. I was causing this chaos within my company, within my team and not even really realizing it. So, once I saw the light, so to speak, and I was able to listen to the things that I was actually taught, everything just started coming together like a symphony orchestra in my head. And then it just all sounded like beautiful music and then I can kind of see the big picture. So, we ended up promoting our business development manager. We gave him a pathway to operations manager. So, once I did that and I saw the little bit of effect, and he wasn't a full operations manager at that time. He was just helping me take some of the operations load off of me. But even that little bit, I started to realize, oh, I got a little bit of time where I can kind of concentrate on this project that's been sitting here for a year and a half. And then I was able to focus. So, right then and there, I started realizing the impact that was going to have the more I got the heck out of the way. So, I started pulling myself back even more and then even more and then dumping more delegation and responsibility on our BDM ops manager. So, that was kind of like the biggest thing. And I spoke to this a little bit earlier where I realized that Leslie and I needed to put somebody in place in between us that can actually get things done because we weren't the people. As much as we would say to each other, here's what we have to do. Neither of us were the people to actually get in there and get it done. So, once we found that right person and decided on it and put that person in play, then that's when the magic really started happening, really started to get good. Because I got the right person in the right seat that had the right skill set that I was missing. So, basically opposite of me, we work great together. Mason, our operations manager, some of y'all may know him. But that was our greatest success. So, where we are today, we are an organized company. We actually have systems, everything's systemized. We've got our vision and we've got our game plan down and everybody is now executing. I mean, we brought in a scorecard that we never had, which kind of sounds dumb because people have scorecards and KPIs and stuff that they've had for a long time. Well, this company that's been around for 36 years, 37 years, just now started measuring their metrics visually. And that was another thing that was huge, was finally getting all that stuff, important stuff in our faces every week within our team meetings to see, hey, we're kind of sucking on our days on market or we're sucking on our make ready terms. We felt like things kind of sucked, but we didn't have this number in front of us that was telling us, hey, you suck. So, once we were able to display all that, the team changed because everybody's owning all these metrics and these numbers and the spreadsheet that has the greens and the reds just so we have a visual of what's good and what's bad. So, that was huge for everybody within this company when we finally faced our demons and said, all right, here we are. We just kind of dropped our robes and it's like, here's our company. What are we going to do about it? And that's where we are today. We're still improving, but I would say we are a total different company from 365 days ago to what we are today in a positive manner.

Pete Neubig: So, there's so much to chew on there, but I want to ask about you personally first. Right. So, a year ago, you had a lot of stress. You were burnt out. You didn't really care, like fire the owner, not even try to fix it. Don't care. Obviously, that filters down to the team. So, today, now that you have Mason as your operations manager and you've kind of transferred a lot of your responsibility to them and then adding systems and vendor and all that good stuff, how much are you working in the business today?

Rob Kazan: I can leave right now and nobody's going to miss me and everything's going to get done.

Pete Neubig: Can you leave for a couple of hours or can you leave for a couple of days, a couple of weeks, a couple of months?

Rob Kazan: I mean, for sure, a couple of weeks. I'm sure I could be gone 30 days or more and I probably wouldn't be needed too awfully much unless it's fire or flood. I tell everybody, unless a letter comes in the mail and I'm getting sued, nobody send me a lawsuit letter, please, then you can probably handle it. So, to answer your question, I'm involved as much as I want to be involved, but I'm also purposely not trying to be involved because I don't want to stop the flow. I don't want to change what we have building and growing right here. I know if I get back in any way that's major, I'm going to create chaos. So, it's a fine, I'm walking a tightrope here.

Pete Neubig: You're kind of on the precipice of just being an owner now. You're still kind of, so, okay. So, a year ago, the stuff that was most important was you kind of finding issues with the team and then you'd be coming in and being a firefighter and solving those issues. What would you say is your kind of role now?

Rob Kazan: I am a cheerleader, to be honest with you. I get to spend the time, and this is where I struggled as an owner of a company and not really a leader at that time. This is where I found myself this last year and I found my leadership. It was there. My dad drilled it in me. I'm an A personality. I just didn't know how to lead people. So, I found that ability within. So, I'm a cheerleader for my team. So, now when I cast my vision to my operations manager, I'm cheering him on to get him going. I'm making sure that he's cheering the pods on and we just got this thing going where it starts at the top and I get to sit there and I have this time now to watch every movement here and just go, heck yeah. Whereas before, I didn't because I was in those movements buried. Part of things that I regret was telling people, hey, you did a good job today. I didn't seize those moments as often as I should.

Pete Neubig: You're finding the mistakes instead of finding reasons to give them the cheer.

Rob Kazan: Yes. So, now I cheer these mistakes on because we build better from them and I'm like, hey, it's cool. We did this, but here's what's going to happen next time because we just learned from this and that's good. Education has been very expensive for me throughout my lifetime. Education comes in all forms and fashions. Some of it's dark and some of it's bright and some of it's hard and some of it's easy, but it's all education and it's all moments that you can capitalize to make yourself better.

Pete Neubig: So, would you say the culture of the company is the same as it was a year ago, similar or is it a lot different?

Rob Kazan: We're a team. I mean, we are an absolute unit now. So, yeah, it took casting that vision. It took everybody understanding the direction. It took me getting out of the way and it took, which gave my team the ability to realize their full capability because I'm not holding them back now. They're the ones that really have transformed this team more so than anything I did in the last year. I think that was allowing them to make mistakes and allowing them to figure out what was right and what was wrong and analyze that and improve themselves instead of just the old way I was doing things.

Pete Neubig: I've heard that the people you start with are not the people you finish with and you tend to outgrow some of your team. You had a huge growth in your vision and who you became and you're just kind of mental. Just mentally, you kind of had a big shift. Were you able to bring the team along or did you have some people kicking and screaming and you had to make some changes? Was there turnover this last year?

Rob Kazan: Believe it or not, we only had one resident service coordinator turnover this last year. Everybody else, it's the same familiar faces I see week after week. It's been a beautiful thing. They all stuck in there with me. I don't know if it's something that they believed in me, but they've been here through thick and thin. I've been fortunate that our team's been able to maintain itself. Everybody understood. Everybody got it. They want it and they have the capacity to do it. That scenario right there.

Pete Neubig: I think your people might have been starving for leadership.

Rob Kazan: Absolutely. To be honest with you, the leadership comes in the form of my operations manager because like I said, he's what I was not. He's what I'm not. I've got my place in here. I'm great at the vision, but they did need somebody to help them carry that ball down the field to the end zone. Not that I couldn't do that. I just didn't know exactly that I needed to do that and then how to get it done and then to do that successfully because again, I'm all over the place. You've got my attention this half a second, but after that, if a fly goes by, then you've lost it. My implementation part sucked. I couldn't lead in that manner. I had to put somebody else in there.

Pete Neubig: You need an integrator. You need somebody who's kind of an integrator. One of the challenges I had when I was growing Empire, I started getting to the point where I felt like I wasn't needed anymore. I wasn't working in the business anymore. I didn't know how to become a CEO. I didn't know how to be a CEO just yet. There was this period of time where I felt like I didn't have any worth to the company. Did you run into that at all?

Rob Kazan: Yeah, just recently. Just recently as maybe three months ago where I was making that drive to get myself somewhat extracted out so I can get my head out of the clouds and kind of see things. Then I put my BDM a little bit in the operations role and I saw how good he was and it scared me. It was almost threatening at times in my mind, but I'm crazy. I kind of tend to see things in a negative aspect at times, but don't realize the positiveness of it. I felt a little threatened like, dang, I just put this guy and he's so much better in this position than I ever was. It was that moment where I actually looked at myself as like, now what am I supposed to do? How do I provide to my father's company that's been around for this long and make sure that carries forward? I just basically pinched myself out of here because I didn't know what my next role actually was and how to define that next role. As early as three months ago, I was still lost on what I was supposed to do, but the company was heading in the right direction. Things were going good, but my mental stability was just confused.

Pete Neubig: Yeah, I think guys like us, Rob, that you're working for your dad's company. I started mine from scratch. I think putting in 80 plus hours a week was kind of like a badge of honor, right? Then all of a sudden, you're sitting there and you're like, oh man, I hired all these great people and now when I come in the office, I'm actually causing problems. They don't even need me anymore and you kind of lose a piece of yourself. How did you get over that? Did Tony kind of talk you through it or did you just find how to become the visionary and CEO or just be a business owner? Talk me, walk me through that because personally, I need some help with this.

Rob Kazan: Tony helped and the way that he helped was he brought everything that was already bouncing around inside of me for many years to the forefront and just kind of provided that guidance. Then like I said, one day, whatever, I'm sleeping and then while I'm sleeping, everything just kind of started coming together for me. Like I said, I didn't say this, but I just remember I woke up one morning and I felt different. This was as recent as two months ago. Then more and more of the machine was becoming clear to me. Basically, I was getting this blueprint that was coming into my mind and then I build off of that and I was like, oh, that's pretty interesting. I'm actually starting to see things within the company that I never would have saw. Just recently, like I said, I have this clear picture of this blueprint and that's where I'm at today. I think I might have gotten off track on your question there.

Pete Neubig: It sounds like that you've been able to replace the working in the business on the business. You didn't know what to do for a while, but now you have a kind of a clearer picture of what your role is again and now that's allowing you to not feel like you don't know value.

Rob Kazan: Yeah, because that blueprint gave me the role. It's like, all right, well now you just have to create this blueprint and if something needs to be modified over here, make the vision modification and then cast that into your team so that they can rewrite this blueprint for you. I guess in a weird roundabout way of how I say things, that's how I envisioned it was occurring in my mind.

Pete Neubig: So just to wrap it up, to wrap this up, let's just talk a little bit, real super high level. Okay, so first thing is if you want to change your business, would you say the first thing is like your mindset has to want to change? Like, is it a mindset thing or is it just, Hey, I'm brute force. I'm just going to do this thing. Like, is it task-based or is it kind of like a mental thing? Do you think?

Rob Kazan: Well, I think for me, and I should probably go back to almost two years ago when I decided to make a change in my personal life. And, and me saying this, I don't judge anybody or what they do. Everybody's here on earth to do what they decide they want to do. What's best for them. I did quit drinking and I started eating a, just a clean diet. I basically am just a meat eater. Um, and by doing that after about three months, things, clarity just started to set in, into my body that hadn't been there for a while, where I was just walking around in a fog all the time. So when I, when I did that, I liked it. I love the taste of the responsibility that I was giving my body, the commitment and things like that. And I saw what it was doing with my mind. Uh, you know, it just, things were a lot more clear. So building that up with not drinking with the way I was eating and staying with that commitment, I myself just started to morph and change from this old person to this new person. And I love it. Um, so that in itself has helped drive, uh, all the changes that I've been able to do within this company and make the decisions on where I could see. I got to get out of the way, get out of the way, do everything you can. You know, I knew that there was potential on my team. I just didn't know how to, you know, so all these little changes all started with that one moment. I woke up December 4th, 2024, and just decided I wasn't going to drink and I was going to eat a bunch of meat.

Pete Neubig: So, So, okay. So you, you have to become the next version of your better self. Then, uh, after that with Claire, you, you know, you have like, um, you changed the culture, you, you brought in, you changed, you kept the team, you raised the team up, um, by being a, a better leader, you added some pieces to it. You changed the org structure and you added some AI and some automation. Right. This, this is nothing that's like earth shattering here, what you're doing. Right. But, uh, but really a lot of people fail on the people side and on the, on the leadership side, right? Cause creating a process, a lot of people can do that. They can buy, you know, whatever. Uh, or you did both. Honestly, you did the people and the process. Cause people can fail on both to be honest. Cause I just, I just talked to Ben Servin, right. And Ben talked about how people fail on getting the process from A to Z. Uh, especially somebody who's a visionary like yourself, it's hard to go A to Z. So you realize that bringing the integrator, he helped you go through, get to the, instead of going A to G, you got all the way to A to Z. Finish the process. Um, the team, the team now is, is operating more efficiently. Um, you're looking for wins, not losses, right? You know, you're looking for right, not wrong. Um, and you created KPIs. So people, culture, team systems, uh, automation KPIs. And now, and, and of course you have like, who you had to become. You had to change. You had to become somebody different.

Rob Kazan: You had to become the CEO or, or owner of, of, uh, of first we were able to do all that within 365 days to a level of success. And I never really felt like we would be at, um, now it's about time to put the pedal to the metal on our growth mode because my foundation, I feel like is really, really strong and really built right now. So, um, so that, that's our, that's our overall goal. Now, uh, moving forward, we gotta, we gotta tighten a few more screws, but we're about to flog this donkey.

Pete Neubig: So I feel great when like, uh, I know, man, so many property management firms, including mine, when I had mine scared of growth because of how much it was going to put stress on the, uh, on the, on the systems and the people. And so, you know, almost like every time I grew, I had to hire people and I couldn't afford them. And then I had to grow again so I can hire them and put everybody in stress. Uh, so the fact that you have all of your ducks in a row and you're ready for growth and you have, I'm assuming at this point, you're not, you're not burnt out anymore.

Rob Kazan: You're no, I've got a, I've got like a new spark, like I've never had before. Um, so with our management company, we also have a maintenance company. So both these companies have the same struggles. So what's cool about this whole situation and I'm like, Uber learning all this real fast is because I'm doing this to two companies. So because I'm building this management company, unless I make sure that the maintenance company, uh, is built as well, the same way, then one's a failure to the other. So I know I it's non-compromised. Both these companies have to, had to turn this corner. Um, and just as recent as last week, I hired a maintenance manager, which I was handling that role within the maintenance company. So now I've even got a clearer vision. So circling all the way around to what I'm doing today. Um, I'm empowering my two, my, I call it my two headed serpent between my operations manager on my maintenance management side and my maintenance manager on my, uh, maintenance side, and they're just attacking it and they're, they're killing it. So I'm, I'm able to enjoy this ride and I've got a newfound spark in the direction of this company. So we've got big lofty goals.

Pete Neubig: Well, a big kudos to you and Leslie for, for making these, you know, awesome changes in your business and really, you know, I mean, just going from stress to not stress and all the things that we talked about and kudos to Tony for, for getting that out of you, you know, uh, which is going to get all that, get that out of you.

Rob Kazan: Hey, and it's not all Tony, Pete, you're there too. And you know, in our conversations, there's things that I picked up on and, you know, just, uh, uh, just admiration to knowing your story and the things that you've done and looking at myself going, man, it's time, it's time to do this, Rob. And it's from people like you as well.

Pete Neubig: If that Bozo Pete can do it, I sure can do it.

Rob Kazan: That's exactly what I was thinking, man.

Pete Neubig: Well, Rob, if somebody's interested to learn more about, about you, your journey and, and see if you can help them, how would they, how do you pay forward? How can they reach out to you?

Rob Kazan: Uh, I am doing everything I can to, uh, um, to, to pay forward at any moment I can now. So this is another thing that's been a benefit. I've been able to think about these things. So, uh, I, everybody I meet, I'm shaking their hand. I'm telling them who I am. I'm telling them what I, you know, not that what I could do for them, but I'm just like, Hey, if you ever need anything, I've probably been through everything plus many that you're about to go through here. I'm, I'm a source of knowledge and I'll be glad to help you out. So, um, so yeah, just anybody wants to reach out to me. Thanks in any way I can possibly help them. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm definitely, I'm, I'm fired up to do it.

Pete Neubig: Awesome. What's the best way they can reach out? Email?

Rob Kazan: Yeah. Shoot me an email and, uh, rob@1stchoicepm.com. Call my office, whatever. I'm, I'm, I'm definitely around.

Pete Neubig: So, and first choice is the number 1-S-T choice.com Rob@1stchoicepm.com.

Rob Kazan: pm.com.

Pete Neubig: Yup. And let's give Tony a little shout out. If, uh, do you, do you know Tony's email? Uh, I don't even know Tony's. Tony.

Rob Kazan: I think he's got 60 different emails. He does not make it hard to contact him. So I'm sure.

Pete Neubig: You can do a LinkedIn for Tony Cline. C-L-I-N-E.

Rob Kazan: Onyx consulting.

Pete Neubig: Onyx.

Rob Kazan: You can find them there.

Pete Neubig: Yep. And, uh, if you are, if you are interested in remote team members, I think Rob, you said you have a few remote team members, if I'm not mistaken. And, uh, if you are interested in remote team members, you can shoot me an email. pete@vpmsolutions.com. I'll be more than happy to talk to you about how they changed my business. Uh, or you can just go to VPMsolutions.com. And of course, if you're listening to this and you're not a NARPM member, shame on you. NARPM.org.

Rob Kazan: NARPM.

Pete Neubig: 800-782-3452. Rob, thanks again so much for being here. See you everybody.

Rob Kazan: Hey, let's get back together. Thank you, buddy.

Pete Neubig: All right. See you.