How Better Listing Media Helps Property Managers Lease Faster | Kori Covrigaru

A Podcast | Kori Covrigaru

Pete Neubig: Welcome, everybody, to the NARPM Radio Podcast. I'm your host, Pete Neubig, the voice of NARPM. And I say this every week, but we got another incredible show. Kori Covrigaru, co-founder and CEO of PlanOmatic. PlanOmatic has been in business for over 20 years and is the largest US provider of real estate photography. PlanOmatic is a bootstrap company, very similar to VPM. So I love a fellow entrepreneur that's bootstrapping. Kori, in his spare time, is also a part-time instructor at the University of Colorado, focused on real estate technology. Kori, welcome in.

Kori Covrigaru: Thank you. Thanks, Pete. When's the last time you did this?

Pete Neubig: The last time I did a podcast?

Kori Covrigaru: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: Um, it's been last week.

Kori Covrigaru: Okay, cool. Yeah, it's been a while for me. So I'm ready to jump back in.

Pete Neubig: All right. Yeah, yeah. Because we do one a week here. I do stack them, though. We are in the summer months. So the last time I actually recorded was probably a month ago. Okay. But yeah, so all right. Well, great to have you on, man. So let me just ask you this first. How does PlanOmatic help property managers? What challenges does it solve?

Kori Covrigaru: The challenges that we solve are... There are three main challenges we solve. By far, the number one challenge is reducing vacancies. We have countless pieces of data that show that professional photography, 3D tours, and floor plans reduces days on market, reduces the time from rent ready to listing, and to ultimately getting a lease signed. So that's the number one thing, is we help property managers reduce vacancies. The second thing that we help with is saving time. And I know a lot of different providers really talk about this, but our data shows that we can actually get a listing rent ready 14 days faster than the average in-house or third-party photographer does. And that's all due to the integration and the technology that we use, how we integrate with your property management software. We sync the portfolio over. You can also order a shoot from a work order, and then we actually sync the photos back to the property management software or leasing automation platform. So that saves a lot of time. It also saves a lot of windshield time if you're trying to do it in-house. Quality is obviously a lot higher. And then the third way that we help property managers is we elevate their brand. So there are a lot of property management companies out there. A lot of property management companies are competing over listings. And when a potential owner or an institutional investor or anybody comes to your site to look and see, they can see transparently how you handle your existing portfolio, right? How you're marketing to renters for your existing customers. And that's where they see when the professional photography comes in, they see your brand elevated. And so it shows that you're taking care of their homes, you're taking care of their property, and you're ultimately doing the best and putting the nicest face forward for those listings on the public websites and on the public ILSs on Zillow, on Realtor.com, et cetera. So those are the three main areas. We help reduce vacancies, save you time, we're more efficient, and then elevate your brand.

Pete Neubig: So the way I understand it, is PlanOmatic basically like an Uber for photographers? Is that a kind of a high-level way of thinking like that?

Kori Covrigaru: It is, it is. That's a good way of thinking, but it is and it isn't, right? In one respect, you reach out to us, you place an order, and our fleet, you know, we have a fleet of contractors out across the U.S., they'll go and they'll shoot that property, bring it back to HQ through the cloud, we'll process it and then send it back to where it belongs. The biggest difference between us and what I would say like an Uber of photography is we have a lot more care and control over the quality, the service expectations. We're really managing that order, whereas when you're placing an order on Uber, when you order a ride, it's really between you and the driver. And for us, it's not between the property manager and the photographer. You're still dealing with headquarters, you're still dealing with our support team, you're still dealing with our quality standards, our service standards. So it's a little bit of the best of both worlds, where yes, you're ordering on-demand photography, 3D tours and floor plans, but you're getting it with the backing of an institutional company that's been doing this for a very long time.

Pete Neubig: Now, you guys do photos and floor plans. Do you do video as well? Do you see a big difference with leased properties that have a video versus a floor plan versus neither? Where do you come out on what you should actually put out there if you're the property manager really trying to get a property leased?

Kori Covrigaru: So we've done a lot of research as far as what products really help move the listing, help property managers get new owners. And what we found and what we found with the attention span of the typical consumer out there is that the leading, number one thing is photos. It's professional photos, like hands down, right? The next thing that renters are looking for are floor plans, actually. And the third thing are 3D tours. Video comes in much farther down the road and we attribute that to the lower tolerance for attention, right?

Pete Neubig: Yeah, no one wants to watch a 12-minute video walking to a house, right?

Kori Covrigaru: Nobody's got time for that, especially renters who are maybe looking at a lot of different houses. So when they're in a 3D tour, when they're in a floor plan, in an interactive floor plan, they have that control where they click, where they go. They can click around, see what they want to see. Whereas when you're watching a video, that takes a lot more attention, a lot more thought, a lot more time. And so we have gotten requests from property managers, hey, I want a video. But really when it comes down to it, they want it for more of the inspection side of things and less for the marketing side of things. And we're focused on marketing right now. I say right now, we're constantly looking at other products and do we want to get an inspection, move an inspection, et cetera. But what we're finding is that photos, 3D and floor plans, photos, floor plans, and 3D are really the top getters. We also, we always have people come to us and say, hey, we'd love a video. And we say, okay, well, we start talking about what would you be willing to pay? And it doesn't really align. It's one of those things where it's easier for property managers to go out and shoot their own video for the quality and grade that's being looked for on the rental side of the business.

Pete Neubig: So interesting. I've always heard like video was great for like SEO. Not sure if that's true anymore. That was 10, 12 years ago when we were doing it. So as far as a consumer though, looking at a property, photos, professional photos, and then the actual walkthrough. So they can actually see where they, is that called a walkthrough? Is that what that's called? Like a walkthrough? A 3D tour or- 3D tour, that's it.

Kori Covrigaru: The 3D tour. It really all depends on what Zillow wants to do. The number one lead source for most of us in this industry is gonna be Zillow. And we know Zillow produces the 3D tours that we provide. And that's why we went with Zillow versus some other providers out there. We know what Zillow does to the listings. There's actually a toggle that shows, show me rentals with a 3D tour and show me one without. There is not one for video. And we know that Zillow pushes those listings that have 3D tours higher on the search results. And that's why we go with the 3D tours and specifically with Zillow's 3D tours.

Pete Neubig: Is there kind of a price point where you don't want professional photos if you're a property manager? Like, I don't know, like let's say I got a $1,200 rental and my typical average rental price is $3,000. At some point, is there like a return of like, well, it's $1,200 rental. Yeah, diminishing returns.

Kori Covrigaru: I'll give the short answer first because that's what people most like. But there is a price, it's around $1,000 or less where it might make more sense for you to do it on your own. I think it does depend on what your goals are. Are your goals to lease vacancies faster? Are your goals to look more professional and get more listings and get higher price listings as you move up? Is your goal to save a lot of time? If you're looking to elevate your brand, it's hard to put a price on an ROI because you're ultimately trying to get more owners to come and give you more listings. And that sometimes could be looked at as a marketing investment, not just for that property, for that owner, but for your business as well. But yeah, I mean, we found that the actual data doesn't return better results for days on market for higher lease applicants, et cetera, under $1,000 a month.

Pete Neubig: Got it.

Kori Covrigaru: It also depends on the market, right? I mean, if you're in a market where $1,000 is a higher end property versus some markets where $1,000 a month is a really low end property, I think there are a lot of dependencies there. And I think for every PM, it really depends on what your strategy is.

Pete Neubig: Correct. Tell me, how does it... Well, before I ask how it works, like, do you find that most clients are pushing this to the owner clients or are they eating the cost of this as a cost of, you know, because they get a leasing fee. Is this inside the leasing fee typically? Or is this like a, I'm going to sell you, I'm going to upsell you, Mr. Client?

Kori Covrigaru: Yep. It is a very mixed bag. And the reason why it's a mixed bag is because really we're the first company to come into the rental industry, specifically the SFR industry, and create this category of professional listing media services, we call it. So it's Wild West out there. You've got some PMs that may charge a higher fee and include it in their lease up fee, their annual fee, their onboarding fee. More of the seasoned PMs that have been around and been doing this for a while will pass that cost along to the owner. And the even more seasoned PMs will actually make it required as a part of the owner agreement, pass that cost onto the owner, enjoy a discount from us, and then actually earn some cash while providing a better service, higher quality, reducing leasing vacancy days for their owners. So that's the best of all the worlds is pass it on, mark it up a little bit because you put some work into it and enjoy the benefits kind of all around. And your owner enjoys the benefits too.

Pete Neubig: Right. And typically if I have professional photos and somebody moves out the next year, I can use those photos again for a year or two or three. A lot of times I don't have to go back out there and get professional photos if a property is only there at least for a year.

Kori Covrigaru: Absolutely. They can be reused. And I'll tell you what, we started in the institutional space, right? So we started with owner operators that have tens of thousands, some of them have over a hundred thousand homes in their portfolio. And we see that the average, most of them will come back in order after two years because typically paint changes, carpet changes, significant things change. That's when you need new photos, right? Quality changes. I mean, we do offer AI virtual staging. Maybe we'll get into that in a moment, but you're able to also add new services that we may offer today that we didn't offer a couple of years ago, right? Maybe you didn't order floor plans back then. Well, we're going out to order, you know, to deliver floor plans. We may as well refresh the photos. So it just depends again on your strategy. But we're seeing that, yeah, photos can last two, three years max. And then usually there's a clear difference in technology and photography, et cetera.

Pete Neubig: And you as a property manager, you can build different levels. Like, oh, you can just do the professional photos. You can do the photos and the floor plan. You can do the photos, floor plan, video. So I think that you can actually have different levels of what you offer your clients. Or maybe you just do level one for properties that are rented this and below, level two for properties rented this and higher or something like that. So I think there's lots of cool different ways on as a property manager on how they can run their business. But you mentioned institutionals. So what are some of the things that the institutionals are doing that maybe we're not doing yet in the SFR?

Kori Covrigaru: Oh, man, that's a great question. I love answering this. And it's a lot. I mean, these institutional folks have invested a lot of money in data and analytics and really calculating down to, you know, A, B testing the specifics of where the ROI is coming from. For example, they'll run A, B testing on AI virtual staging. They'll do half of their listings in a market with and half without and then compare and see, hey, is AI virtual staging working for me? The results specifically with that product have been a resounding yes. They're absolutely reducing vacancy days, not by a small margin.

Pete Neubig: So just for the audience, just talk about what exactly AI virtual staging is.

Kori Covrigaru: Yeah, so with today's technology, we're able to virtually stage digitally, of course, virtually stage, not actually stage at the home, which is a whole different world and makes no sense for 98% of the rentals out there, right? But we're actually able to use AI technology to virtually stage photos so that the consumer and the potential renter can see, you know, what furniture looks like in the room. It's really hard to, you know, oftentimes you get to a rental and it's a vacant box. You kind of have to think and visualize, well, what does a sofa look like? What does a TV look like there? What arrangement makes sense? And when you're able to psychologically change the mindset of a potential renter to, instead of seeing, okay, I see this vacant box and I think my life might fit into it, to being able to get to the same rental and see what living there might look and feel like to them, what reactions, what emotions they might get by seeing a bedroom with a bed versus a floor, right? Or a kitchen with chairs and where their family might sit and dine and spend the most time in the kitchen. Well, what does that kitchen look like to live in, not to move into? I think that's sort of that unproven, the reason why vacancy days are so much lower with AI, I think is very psychological and that's hard to quantify, but it definitely works. And that's my best guess. It's rather than seeing what it might look like to move in, it's what does it look like to live there and to raise my family there?

Pete Neubig: So the institutionals are kind of looking at this and you're saying that they're actually taking lots of data to see does the AI staging rent these properties quicker than non-AI staging?

Kori Covrigaru: As soon as they apply analysis and data to AI virtual staging, it's a no-brainer. I mean, the cost point is so low compared to the results that we get that we've had companies kind of go through piloting it and it's every single one. We haven't had anyone from the institutional space say, you know what, this isn't for us. It doesn't make sense. We're not seeing the results. And we've seen that happen with 3D before, depending on the company and the brand and the price point. With AI virtual staging, it doesn't matter what the price point is. It just for the home, it just makes sense.

Pete Neubig: Really? Okay. So they're trying it out and they're basically keeping it.

Kori Covrigaru: They're trying it out. They're keeping it. They're doing it for new rentals. And they're also asking us to backfill their previous inventory that we've shot for them over the past with the AI virtual staging.

Pete Neubig: That's interesting. And I'm guessing there's a small fee for that.

Kori Covrigaru: Yes.

Pete Neubig: Okay. And that's something that the single family team, property managers, they're not really embracing that at this time?

Kori Covrigaru: Not as much. It's a much concentrated group of institutional owner operators and they talk and they're colleagues and peers and there just aren't as many. So they kind of discuss the same topics in a smaller group. So I think it's just a matter of some time. Perhaps we can do a better job marketing and explaining it to our PM, third-party property managers, what the results are, why they should be doing it. We are seeing that adoption grow, but we're just seeing it grow much faster in the institutional space than we are in the third-party space right now. We haven't been in the third-party space very long. I mean, one of the things I'm most proud of that we've done over the last, I think it's less than two years, is just the unaided brand awareness that we've been able to create in the space. You kind of think we're everywhere. We show up at all the NARPM conferences and we've invested a decent amount there. But it's like, we haven't been here as long as you might think. I mean, we've been in business for over 21 years, but in this particular space and being integrated with AppFolio, with Buildium, with Rentvine. So we have some other integrations on deck. You would think we've been here a lot longer than we have and we really haven't. So we're still growing. We're still go-to-market. We're still chasing, going out there. You still find me at property management conferences. My business partner, Aaron, attends them all. And so it's still definitely a work in progress. So I think it's also just getting through. We've been within the-

Pete Neubig: The life of a bootstrapper, huh, Kori?

Kori Covrigaru: The life of a... I forgot, I didn't bring my EBITDA hat. I have an EBITDA hat. Yeah, the life of a bootstrapper. Not for the faint of heart.

Pete Neubig: So let's talk about the process and how it works. So let's say I'm a property manager. Matter of fact, I am one right now. We're actually looking at your product. So this is, I'm gonna be open here. But my business partner, Mo, and I, we have about 93 units. He does the day-to-day. I'm just a good-looking face that does podcasts, evidently. Face for radio, not for podcasts, not for video. So the challenge we have right now is we're using a local photographer. And they do a good job of getting pictures out there. But it's one person, right? So now we're in a busy season. Now we have to wait a little bit. So let's talk a little bit about like, okay, what does it look like when you onboard a new SFR property manager?

Kori Covrigaru: Sure. So when we onboard, the number one, first, we still have a discovery call. We wanna understand how you're doing things today, what your biggest pain points are, the typical sales stuff. It's no different here. And how we can help improve what areas of your business are looking to improve. But typically, the first thing we'll do is we'll walk you through integrating with your property management software. We're integrated with AppFolio and Buildium and Rentvine right now. That allows you, when you log into your PlanOmatic platform, now you're seeing your entire portfolio. And you're able to filter and sort what's vacant, how long has it been vacant, what has professional photos, what does not. And then it also allows us to, of course, when we're done with the job, we work at the speed of light. I mean, our goal is to get 80% of the orders that come in delivered from order to delivery in under two and a half days. That's our SLA. That's our goal.

Pete Neubig: Yeah, all right.

Kori Covrigaru: Once those photos are delivered, then they appear in your property management software ready in the right order with the right captions, ready to syndicate, ready to make that listing live, right? So that's the number one thing we do is we integrate you with the property management software.

Pete Neubig: So when you upload those photos to the PlanOmatic portal, do they get automatically pushed into the AppFolios of the world?

Kori Covrigaru: Yes, they do.

Pete Neubig: That's pretty cool.

Kori Covrigaru: As soon as you get your email says your order has been delivered, it's not like ready for you to download a zip and unzip and look at the photos and then upload and then resort. No, it's there in your PMS ready to go.

Pete Neubig: And then are you guys synced with like Zillow as well? So I can just hit a button and it'll actually publish to Zillow. How does that work?

Kori Covrigaru: We don't actually do the syndication work ourselves. We kind of leave that up. There's a lot more that goes into it. And that's not something that we're necessarily looking to get into right now. But we are-

Pete Neubig: That's where the AppFolios would come in, right? Because they-

Kori Covrigaru: AppFolios, Show Mojo, Tennant Turner, Ren Engine, those folks, Show Digs. That's where they come in. And that's a whole nother business. As you know, Bootstrapped, it's not like I've got- That's right.

Pete Neubig: You make a cheese pizza. I want pepperoni. We don't do that. We make cheese pizza.

Kori Covrigaru: Yeah, we make pepperoni, but the anchovies like not happening over here.

Pete Neubig: There's an old SNL skit where they're in a diner and it's like Coke, no Pepsi. And he's like cheeseburger. And the guy wants, I want a hamburger. No, cheeseburger. And he just keeps ordering cheeseburger, cheeseburger, Coke, no Pepsi. And it's like, you can't get anything other than Coke. And cheeseburger.

Kori Covrigaru: You know, I think- Have you ever seen Five Easy Pieces with Jack Nicholson? Where he orders a chicken sandwich, I think.

Pete Neubig: I didn't see that one.

Kori Covrigaru: Good scene. But yeah, we- So what was it we were- All right, so- Oh, yeah, the integration.

Pete Neubig: Within two and a half days, photos come in. They get put into the PlanOmatic website or whatever. And then they also get pushed right into the AppFolios, the Buildiums, which then if you have Tennant Turner, syncs to that, and then that syncs to Zillow. And so easy peasy.

Kori Covrigaru: Right. As far as the 3D tour and floor plan goes though, that we do automatically push to Zillow on our end. That's just one piece. And it's there attached to the address, attached to the listing. So that when the listing goes live, that 3D tour and those floor plans also go live at the same time. So it's really, it's like no effort, low effort for a PM to get a listing with professional listing media, professional photos, 3D tour and floor plan going.

Pete Neubig: Have you ever had a challenge where one of your photographers go out to the house and they can't get access or the property's not rent ready?

Kori Covrigaru: Every single day, all the time. I mean, we're doing anywhere from 300 to 600 a day. Our average, we measure that too. It's our access success rate hovers above 90%, but not much higher. And so that's something with our institutional folks that we work very closely on. I mean, is it a Rently lockbox issue? Is it a missing key? What's the situation? But it happens more often than not that our photographers get to a home and say, I can't access, pick up the phone, they call, they text. And unfortunately at that point in time, we may have to leave and try to reenter another time. But it's the biggest bummer for us because we have to charge the customer unless it's something that's on our end. Because we have to pay the photographer, right? We have to pay the photographer to get out there and then to go back out there. It's one of the most painful things about this business that I would love to eliminate. That's why we measure ASR access success rates so carefully. It's a benefit for us, it's a benefit for the photographer, it's a benefit for the company.

Pete Neubig: Do you see higher with the SFR versus the institutionals?

Kori Covrigaru: Absolutely. No, sorry, the other way around. The institutional is really high. Everything is very dialed in, very...

Pete Neubig: So the success rate is higher, so they have a better success rate?

Kori Covrigaru: For some, for some. There are some that are not great at providing access or making sure there's access. It also depends on the vendor they use for the lockbox. I mean, again, you've got your Showmojo, you've got Tenant Turner, you've got Rently that really specialize in multi, but they kind of cater to the institutional folks a lot better. It's quite messy. It's something that's always...

Pete Neubig: How do you guys get access? Is that on the ticket that comes into you guys? Do you have access information on that?

Kori Covrigaru: Yes.

Pete Neubig: Yep.

Kori Covrigaru: Sometimes our photographers have to text a number to get access and so forth. It just depends on the vendor that we're working with.

Pete Neubig: Are you seeing any property managers successfully use the partnership with PlanOmatic as a way to attract business?

Kori Covrigaru: All the time. Absolutely. Yeah. It's one of those added values that it's not just about getting that rental leased faster, but it's about elevating your brand. We're always helping prepare co-branded marketing materials for those meetings with potential owners of properties that come to PMs and meet with them. So yeah, our photos, our floor plans, our everything is for use, not only to market that listing, but also to market your brand, to put it on your website. That's something that is definitely used frequently. I'm about to start too.

Pete Neubig: All right. So yeah, so if I'm a property manager and I'm doing the PlanOmatic floor plans with the professional photos and my competitors are not doing that or not even doing professional photos, I can literally pull up their listing versus one of our listings.

Kori Covrigaru: That's our favorite is to show examples of a rental that is being professional photos versus not. And you don't have to dive too deep into it. Into the rental, into the listing on Zillow. I mean, you can just see from that front thumbnail, like we call it the money shot, that front exterior. It makes a huge difference, especially when renters are thinking about clicking here or over there, but also just branding your company and your listings professionally. It goes a long, long way.

Pete Neubig: So other than like... I'm trying to think what our process is right now, right? So we have to call the photographer. The photographer has to send us photos. We have to upload photos. And I'm trying to think what are all the steps that you're taking out for the property manager? I mean, I'm literally just putting a ticket in with you guys and then from there in three days, basically two and a half days, I'm getting the photos back. They're getting sucked into my folio, my building. I'm getting the floor plan and it's all ready to go. So when I hit that button to go into Zillow, it's automatically in Zillow as well. So what all the steps am I missing that you guys are taking out for the property manager?

Kori Covrigaru: Tons of steps. I mean, let's go with a third party photographer, right? Independent photographer. You're texting oftentimes. Maybe you're calling. Maybe they're saying, hey, fill out this order form. You go to the order form. You start entering the listing data. You start entering your information. Again, sometimes it's saved. Sometimes it's not. You're having to re-enter access information, contact information. You're checking out. You're using your credit card. The company's usually getting the order. Now they have to schedule. They're probably reaching out to see what days work, what days don't work because they're used to occupied homes. We work with vacant homes only. So we know as soon as we get an order, we can run out to that property and get it done. So you're going back and forth with the photographer. You're scheduling now. Sometimes you have to show up and meet them there. So you're cutting that part out. Then once they go and shoot, usually the turnaround is a lot longer, especially if you're working with a photographer that's in the for sale by agent business, just shooting for sale listings in the springtime. I mean, they're way scheduled out. So your turnaround time might be way out there. Then you finally, sometimes two, three days after the shoot and maybe you waited five days for the shoot. You get an email that says, click here to download your photos. Go, you log in. You look at the photos. You might see something that doesn't match SFR as well. Let's say it does. You click download. Download is a zip. You unzip. You look at the photos. Now you upload to your PMS. You're sorting again. You're captioning again. You're doing all those things.

Pete Neubig: It's not hard work, but it's a lot of tedious work that just is time consuming.

Kori Covrigaru: And it takes your focus away from things that might be more important or something that you might be doing. Maybe you've got a call coming from an owner. You need to take that call.

Pete Neubig: Or because it's tedious and it takes time, it could push two, three days sometimes because you just didn't get to it. That was the property, right?

Kori Covrigaru: That's the biggest tragedy is hearing from our customers. Oh, like maybe some of them aren't integrated, right? Oh, I have the email with the photos. I just haven't gotten to it yet. And so it's that push from us that says, hey, you don't have to get to it. It's gotten there. Build a listing. Just get the listing out and you're done.

Pete Neubig: Yeah, and that's if you're not doing the photos yourself, right? And if you're a product manager going out and doing photos or you have a field tech team doing photos, I would say first thing is your field tech is not a professional photographer, right? Number one. And number two, you don't get all the wisdom because even a field tech, what do they got to come do? They got to come back on their camera, upload it. And then now you have another person in there. And then how many times they said, I uploaded it and it got stuck or it never got all the way through or they say they did, or they have to wait till they get home to get good internet to upload the photos. So yeah, I lived it. I went through all of this stuff and we're going through it again. I don't know why I keep making the same. What's the old saying? If you repeat, what is it? If you do the same thing over and over, it's called insanity.

Kori Covrigaru: Yeah, it's insane. Same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Pete Neubig: That's right. Is there anything I did not ask you that I should be asking?

Kori Covrigaru: I think the most important thing out of all of this is like, give us a try, right? There's no membership. There's no subscription fee. There's no per door subscription. You literally use us as you need us. And so giving us a try, you do a demo with us, you get integrated. We give you a $500 credit to order photos. It's really risk-free, and so it's worth a try, worth checking out. We have huge focus on customer support, quality, turnaround time, service. I mean, we came from a place that's very rigid in terms of what's expected and what the error rate can be. And so that's something that we just hold very, very near and dear is service and quality expectations. And so I think it fits really well with the industry.

Pete Neubig: Yeah, I also heard that if you order a bigger package, you get better pricing. And then if you could charge the normal pricing back to your owner, and you could make some money for your time and effort on that as well.

Kori Covrigaru: My chief revenue officer loves to tell people that we'll pay you to use PlanOmatic. That's how it works. Pass it on to your owner, make a little bit on the margin, and we're paying you to use our service. And it benefits so many parts of the business, it really does.

Pete Neubig: All right, Kori, if somebody is, hey, I wanna talk to those guys at PlanOmatic. What's the best way that they can reach out or get in touch with you or get in touch with the PlanOmatic team?

Kori Covrigaru: Yeah, so PlanOmatic.com, really easy to book a demo there. You can also email me. My name is Kori, kori@planomatic.com. I'm always happy to talk to our customers, see you out in the field. We're all very available and very willing to talk to as many property managers as we possibly can, every single one of us.

Pete Neubig: All right, man, well, if you are listening to this and you're not a member of NARPM, go to narpm.org, narpm.org, or you can give them a call at 800-782-3452. And normally, yeah, I'd plug in like, oh, have your remote team members take the photos and upload them for you, but Kori does all that already. But if you are in a need for remote team members, give us a try, vpmsolutions.com. There's no charge. There's, just like Kori, there's no annual fee, no monthly subscription fee. Get on there, create a free profile, and browse, I think we're at 47,000 profiles, candidates looking for work in the property management industry. Kori, thanks so much for being here. See you, everybody.

Kori Covrigaru: Thanks, Pete.