Sell It, Scale It, or Hire a CEO? | Deb Newell

A Podcast | Deb Newell

Pete Neubig: Welcome, everybody, to the NARPM podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. We have old school friend of mine, Deb Newell. She's the owner of Real-Time Consulting. She successfully exited two companies and she exited real-time leasing and real-time property services. And even though Deb looks like she's about 25, she's been in this business, in this industry longer than even I have, if people can believe that. Deb, thanks so much for gracing us with your presence.

Deb Newell: Thank you.

Pete Neubig: All right. So do I have to call you Dr. Deb or can I call you Deb?

Deb Newell: You can call me Deb.

Pete Neubig: All right. But if you guys don't know her, you have to call her Dr. Deb. But if you know her, like me, you can call her Deb. All right. So Deb, before we get into the latest venture that you have, PMX Marketplace, just talk about Real-Time Consulting first. Talk about your journey from when you owned the PM business and your property services business and then how that got you into Real-Time Consulting.

Deb Newell: Well, I started flipping homes and that led into building the maintenance company, becoming a general contractor, doing all of that. And then eventually that led to accidentally, like a lot of people, falling into property management, like how hard can this be? So I'm managing my own properties and then people are saying, hey, again, will you help my friend manage properties? I'm like, sure. It's not that hard. So it kind of grew.

Pete Neubig: All you do is collect rent, Deb.

Deb Newell: Exactly. We just open the door, let people in, they pay us. So I wish somebody... It's one of those things where you're like, really? Did I really know? But it really just grew organically. I did put no effort into it at all. It was all through just people I knew. I served on... I was a real estate agent. I served on the board of directors for the local association, then served on the state. And that was probably my growth method was like, selfishly, I was the only property manager on those boards. So that was really helpful.

Pete Neubig: There's a great tip for you. If you're listening right now, that's a great tip.

Deb Newell: I know.

Pete Neubig: For your business.

Deb Newell: It really is actually. And it really works because a lot of realtors don't want to do property management as they probably shouldn't. It's not easy and it can really get away from you if you're not careful. And nowadays it's even harder. I will say there wasn't as many rules and regulations back in the day as there is today. And I'm not even opposed to some of them. I think they're there to give really bad landlords this... Yes, it was probably built for some of the few, but it really holds us all accountable to being really good at what we do. But it also helps with the narrative to say, you really should hire a professional property manager and not do this yourself. So you can argue both sides on the pros and cons of that. And that grew into... Then I served on the NARPM board of directors back in 2014 under Tony Drost. So when he was president and served there for a couple of years, and that also built out kind of this basically a bill out of platform of you just get to know people. I was area manager or regional vice president, I should say, for two regions at the time, because it was structured very differently back then. And that kind of grew into helping others and kind of teaching and coaching slash really digging into people's businesses. And I'm like, I really enjoy this. I love doing it. When I was in my undergrad, my senior thing that went to get my... When I was kind of doing that, because it was in Poli Sci at the time, I got to teach a Poli Sci 101 class at University of Colorado Denver. I mean, the professor did nothing. He literally handed the class to me and said, it's yours. It was awesome. Loved it. And that kind of grew from there on just enjoying this education part and teaching others, which then kind of grew into me going back to school for other things and building on that and then deciding to exit, leave Minnesota because it was really cold there and move to Arizona where it's a lot warmer. And I've been doing the consulting business. I started in 2013 and I've been doing the consulting. I had somebody run the other businesses and it just kind of all the stars aligned and without knowing that they did. And that's kind of how I ended up here today. And so really to say what does Real-Time Consulting do is that we're really a hands-on property management consulting firm. I call it... I look under the hood of the car. I go inside companies and I do what I really call forensic diagnosis of the company from the foundation to the top. I interview the team. I review the financials line by line. I evaluate people, process technology and revenue. And people drive the process. Process determines what technology you need. And then when those three are aligned, the revenue follows. And so over... I think last year alone, I looked over... I did the calculation because I was actually curious myself. I did over 600 diagnoses of just diving in and having these conversations with companies. And I see a lot of consistent patterns when I do this. I can walk into a company now and within 30 days, I can identify where revenue is leaking, where the team is misaligned, where the top technology is underutilized and what that path forward looks like for them. And that work produces this executive summary report that I put together. And that becomes really this operating blueprint for the next 12 to 18 months for this company.

Pete Neubig: And I really like watching your journey from afar. It's been pretty amazing because originally, you did a lot of consulting on the maintenance because that was the biggest, heaviest...

Deb Newell: And I love that too.

Pete Neubig: You ran a maintenance company and you successfully exited that. You sold that to RealPage back... When did you sell that one?

Deb Newell: Well, the part that I sold to RealPage was different. That was a software. So that was a SaaS product that I created for the maintenance company. And then that was actually... That was in 2014 that that happened. So they no longer actually support that platform, but that RealPage at the time brought a lot of different platforms that they do it for...

Pete Neubig: You were ahead of the curve on that, right? Not a lot of SaaS products were out there in 2014.

Deb Newell: No, they weren't. It was very, very rough. I think now it would be a very different product and a very different platform than it was back then.

Pete Neubig: So I know you cut your teeth on consulting, just doing the maintenance stuff. And then of course, that just kind of grows into all encompassing. And now you're noticing that a lot of your clients are looking at like, hey, how do I evaluate my company? Or I'm thinking about buying another property management firm. Or hey, I want to maybe prepare myself for an exit. As us old timers get a little bit older, we're like, okay, we don't have anybody that wants to take it over. How do I exit this? And so that was really... Was that the driver that made you create...

Deb Newell: Well, I think... Well, a percentage of the engagements that I do in consulting, they don't always end with just, here's how you fix your business. Some of them end with like me having to help them decide that maybe you're ready to exit, or this owner should be acquiring. Or it even could be the company's value is significantly higher than the owner realizes. And then of course, that leads to different discussions. Every time I do evaluation of a company, I am... Or any time I do an engagement with a company, I'm always doing an evaluation. I want them to see where their current state is. Where are you at today? And where are we trying to get you to? So current state versus future state. And sometimes that current state will be very indicative of how we end up into the future, whether it be more revenue, et cetera, and build on growth. And I think that helps the companies realize what they need to be focusing on in the moment. And then again, as some of it may be that they're realizing that they're in... They're just tired. Maybe they just don't want to do this anymore. So it really kind of... And I do get a lot of inquiries from buyers who are always looking for property management companies to acquire. And again, some of my companies are ready to sell. And so I work as an M&A advisor really to help them position themselves to do that. But the consulting work just really kept surfacing that same structural gap. It's owners who have built real value, but then were really afraid to kind of raise their hand and say, I have something because then it would be just flooded with buyers who... And I think it was just overwhelming for them. So they really wanted somebody to kind of help them really structure what that deal could look like. So last year I did seven. I mean, it's consistently grown over the years. I've done them for the last, I don't know, four or five years where it's just consistently grown how many I've already done for this year. And so it was this... Maybe it was just kind of this aha moment where I'm like, gosh, there has to be some way that I can help even... I have a great network, but sometimes even my network is not the right fit. And I really spend time trying to curate who I think my seller would be a good fit for, for a buyer. And so that's kind of where PMX entered into the picture. Again, it's not... A lot of those engagements don't end with just how to fix the business. They just want to exit. And so when the Real-Time Consulting solves that diagnostic problem, it tells you what your company looks like from the inside. And I think PMX solves this market problem. It tells you what your company is worth relative to the industry and connects you with qualified buyers or sellers. I mean, I already have some plans and some iterations of where I want this platform to go for even on the buyer's side. And so it's two sides of the same thesis really. It's property management companies or real businesses with real enterprise value, and they deserve the same quality of analysis and the same valuation and the same access to a functioning marketplace that every other professional service industry has out there. And right now, the way I kind of describe PMX is it's the Kelly Blue Book meets like a BizBuySell, which there's nothing wrong with BizBuySell. You can definitely exist your property there, property management company there. It's just buried in with a bunch of different industries. And maybe I'm a little biased, but I like to think that our industry is very different than other industries. And we have a lot of nuances that sometimes are valued very differently. You'll hear about business brokers who are not part of industry at all, and they'll do evaluation and they've missed the mark on so many different things because they don't understand the relationship when it comes to fee management and how we're structured internally and how we manage properties for other people. So that's a big part of it.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. So you're solving multiple problems, right? So problem number one is I own a property management firm and I want to put it out there on a market or I want to put it out there for sale, but I also don't want to get inundated. And I don't really know how to do that either. One is I don't know what the valuation is. I'm not really sure. Two, I don't really know what to do to fix that and to get the highest valuation. And three, I don't really know where those true buyers are. So with the PMX marketplace, you can list your business on there or you can just do a valuation if I'm correct. Is that correct?

Deb Newell: That is correct. Yep. And I've made this, that's the other thing I've done differently. This is free. So I kind of took a page from you a little bit on that, Pete, but I was like trying to, I wanted something that somebody could access in our industry and not have to pay to list. And so it was get a free valuation. I mean, you could, there's so much information out there on the web. You could Google, use Chat, Claude, whomever to probably get a very rough valuation of the business based on just industry metrics that are out there today. There's really no, I don't know if there's a lot of secrets when it comes to that. I think, but I can tell you every buyer that I've ever worked with will value a company very differently. I can take five buyers for one company and they'll all come up with a very different amount. And it's really just because it's what they're looking at and what's important to them and what they know that they're absorbing and how it fits into their current, you know, their current portfolio or model. And, and that's okay. What I do is I give a range when I'm even working with a client on the consulting side, I always give them a range saying, Hey, you're going to fall between this and this. Somebody is going to buy you between these amounts. And it's either an EBITDA, you know, a valuation. So there's different methodologies I use, right? So it's EBITDA, it will be SDE. So sellers discretionary earnings, it will be top line. It will be per door. I try to give them a couple of different valuations, but in part, it's going to be dependent on the size of the company that plays a factor into it. This type of portfolio, the market where they're located, all of that really.

Pete Neubig: So based on how big of a company I have now, is that based on revenue? Is that based on door count typically?

Deb Newell: It's going to be based on both. So I think there's a, so here's a, here's a good example. So if you have a company that's 200 doors or 300 doors, I'm probably not going to give you a valuation. It doesn't make sense. It's actually going to come in a little bit lower. It's going to tell you that number. And you're going to be like, but because keep in mind the psyche of this is, this is more of an emotional transaction. When I have a smaller company, it's a little bit more emotional, right? This was my baby. I grew it organically. I curated these, these people that work for me, like I'm protective of all of this and every dollar counts. And the bigger companies will do valuations on EBITDA because that's their, that's their operating model. Essentially, that's how they're valued because they're larger. So they may give you an EBITDA valuation, but it may not really play into the overall true value of what that company has built and futuristically what it could be worth in, as you build in your revenue. You know, there's opportunities with smaller companies where they may not be capturing all revenue a bigger company can do. And there's advantages where a bigger company has more resources that a smaller company doesn't have. So there's pros and cons. But I think, and so then, but then I would say, but if you have a company of 700 doors or more, sure, let's do an EBITDA valuation. That would be one of it. You see more SDE and top line, in my personal opinion, under the 700 door mark, then I would see EBITDA. But it doesn't mean that somebody won't present an EBITDA valuation. It's just, I would want to see it weighted against the others. And then that average might make more sense. Everything's negotiable. So it's, you know, the buyer really wants that portfolio and that book of business. And that's what they're probably buying mostly not so much of the entire company. And that's the other thing. So you're structuring book of business versus the company.

Pete Neubig: Versus assets. So, all right, let's, a couple of things here. Are you seeing valuations over the last few years going up, down, or staying pretty consistent?

Deb Newell: I see them staying, I would say they're ticking down a little, but I don't say, but not a lot. I think that's really also where the market is, like the economical market today, not so much the industry.

Pete Neubig: The cost of money is more expensive, right? It's almost like buying a house, right?

Deb Newell: The dollar is not as, yeah. You could almost argue to say, is our dollar strong against what we're buying?

Pete Neubig: And interest rates, not just interest rates for buying properties, it's just the cost of money, right? Interest rates are up. As interest rates go up, costs come down. They got to save that money somewhere. Now, let's just say I have a 250 unit, you know, doing, I don't know, doing, let's say close to a million bucks. If I go on a Payments Marketplace, do I put that information in? Will it tell me which one of these, um, you know, uh, strategies of selling, like we'll say SDE is best for you or-

Deb Newell: It will actually, it will give you kind of, it will tell you what the best valuation, it will give you a scorecard. And that scorecard, again, is kind of relative to industry averages and relative to like the percentile. And so it kind of changes the conversation. It really takes it from being more subjective to objective. And it's more also moving the, I think my company's worth X, um, and it lets data really drive that, you know, that number. So it, I also did this because I was working with, again, it's that emotional factor. I lived it.

Pete Neubig: I had a big company and I was still emotionally tied to it.

Deb Newell: So, well, and we think our company and we feel our company is worth this because of, I mean, of all that blood, sweat, and tears that we put into it, unfortunately, there's not necessarily a dollar. I mean, there is, I don't want to say that there isn't because there is value in what you built, but it's not the same as sometimes how we think about it. Our, so, uh, it kind of, it will take that piece out of it. It's really all factual at this point. It's here's what the data would produce. Now, it doesn't mean that that might be the final, like, oh, this is it. This is all, um, there might be other things that you didn't share or disclose. We just do the basics. I made this very simple to say, income expenses. If you know your DLR, great. If you don't, we even have a calculator that you can go to and plug it all in to learn it and get that number. If you want to plug it back in even better, it will just give you here based off of, it'll give you your RPU, your PPU. So revenue per unit, profit per unit, exactly. So it's going to give you the scorecard based on where you sit. Oh, you know, you're strong. Um, you know, your, your door counts kind of low and your, um, you know, and your RPU is really low or vice versa. Your RPU is really high and they're like, this is great. And so it'll be like green. So it's like, again, I kept it simple. It's a little bit like a stoplight red, yellow, green. Yeah. So just to kind of say, this is where you sit at a glance. And then this is the weighted value based on these valuations. And, um, it, it just, it makes it as, again, as easy as possible.

Pete Neubig: And the reason why the range in, in what, what the valuation is, is because you're actually taking all those different methodologies and kind of plugging them out there. And then, so on the low end, it might be the SDE is low on this end and the EBITDA might be high on this end. And that's kind of the range.

Deb Newell: But there may be, but there's still going to be information we don't know and that's okay. So that's when people go, well, I don't, I think that's wrong. Well, it might be, it's only going to be as bright as the data you entered in. So then we have to go back and look at what did you enter? If your expenses were super high and you didn't take, you know, you, you may want to eliminate.

Pete Neubig: So it kind of walks you might, you might be running a lot of stuff personally through your business, especially if you're a smaller business with no partners, you got to take that. Right. So you have to have my, my, my, what does my accountant always say? You have to have the P&L and you have to have the true P&L, which is when you get to the attorney and then you have the one with you put all your stuff in there. Right.

Deb Newell: So it's going to, so what, you know, it's going to ask you your door count. It's going to ask it, ask your asset mix. It's going to say, what's your primary geography, you know, geographical location, what's your total income again, top line. What is your total annual expenses? What is your, and then it will ask you, what is your average rent per unit, which you can easily get from your software. So that's, we actually want to calculate that into it. And then it will even ask as something optional. If you, some people do this, they separate their ancillary revenue from their you know, management fees. So you can actually plug that number in as well. It will spit out your NOI, which hopefully matches pretty much what's on your P&L, your RPU, your PPU, like I told you, and then it will tell you, you know, based on your door count, your, you know, your revenues below average, or you're in the top 25% of what that looks like. And then it will even ask you what your revenue streams are meaning. So I have like a whole list and it will say like, you can, it's just a check mark. And that's really for the buyer to know, oh, they only charge a management fee and a leasing fee and a late fee. And that's it. Yeah. So, so it tells the buyer at a glance, oh my gosh, this company is like golden. It can tell me exactly like they don't charge for inspections or renewals or, or setup fees or anything. So it allows the buyer to at least kind of have some information that they would ask. It even asks you, are you a pod structure, portfolio model, department? Are you a hybrid, other, like it will give you this opportunity to tell you, and then it will even if, again, if your DLER is calculated in there, but it will at least give you this average to say where you sit, not only in, you know, based off of other metrics, but also these method, you know, these valuation methodologies.

Pete Neubig: So if you, if you have a pretty decent P and L and you know, and you know, most of your numbers or at least some of them, this is like a five minute process.

Deb Newell: Oh yeah.

Pete Neubig: Right.

Deb Newell: Very, very easy. And let's say you do the valuation because the calculator is free as well. So let's say you go in there and there's a lot of free resources. Like we give a lot of templates out. A lot of these deals can be done, you know, between a buyer and seller easily. It's just like we do in management, property management, the contract we sign PMAs all the time. It's we honor the contract that was signed. You don't necessarily have to have a lawyer do one every single time. If the company is small enough and you end up trusting the buyer. I mean, the idea is that you can do this yourself. You can get a lawyer, you can get a title company. You can work on that all on your own. This is literally just a platform to connect a buyer and a seller. It's an opportunity. And I can tell you, and I'll tease you with my second iteration of this is I'm going to have a buyer page where buyers can actually sort of pitch themselves to say, Hey, we're interested in these types of companies. And so, so independently a seller can go, I don't want to list, but I'd love to talk to you and have these offline conversations. So that's my second iteration.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. So I want to talk about what you have today for the buyers, but okay. So potential seller, I have this awesome data and I have a bunch of resources. Now, let's just say, I do want to, if I do want to post my property management firm for sale, my information, is it public at that point?

Deb Newell: So that's what I was going to say. So if you do the calculator, you can literally say, now, do you want to post your listing? And then it will walk you through the listing. It won't list who you are. It will list basic information, your location. It will list the, what the buyer would ask right away, right? Yeah. Your revenue and stuff. And it will share with them. If you want to put in an asking price, you can, you don't have to, some will not disclose that. It will share like at a glance, you'll see right away, the property management company, the location, how many doors, what the revenue is, and if there's an asking price. And if you're interested, you can go into it. You can literally write up this flowery thing about you and like give your description. We started in this, we started with this, we generate this much. You can give as much detail as you want. And again, don't even have to disclose the name of the company. Everything is confidential. You can say what your average rent is, your total expenses. You dig in a little bit more, when you started, if you're part of a franchise, what software you use, how many stateside employees you have, how many remote employees you have. And then it will pull in demographic information based on your location. So we actually have that fed in. So it will tell us what the median household is, the state of population, the median age for that area. It will go in by, it will like really dig in and then it will give financial benchmarks for that property management business. This is all the information the buyer sees. If they're interested, they literally can fill out their information. It messages the seller, all confidential. So you can communicate back and forth with still never revealing who you are until you feel like you want to have that like discussion. Then I think we do this weekly. We ping the seller to say, basically the email saying, hey, how's your listing going? Are you under an LOI yet? And if they say yes, they can go into their listing and say under LOI. They can even say, hey, I'm accepting all LOIs with the deadline of the 20th. And then they can put that in and that will show up right away. So people know, wow, I'm super interested. I got to get my LOI in.

Pete Neubig: Let's talk real quickly about the buyer side journey. So obviously version two, they're going to be able to put their stuff out there to say, hey, we're in the market. So what do they do today? Is it just like a kind of like almost like VPN where they just log on and they just see a list of-

Deb Newell: Yes. And then they can actually, they can also say, I'm interested if anybody, I'm interested in the Southeast market. And so they can input their information in and say what markets they're interested in. And then they will get notified the minute a listing populates with that market, in that market.

Pete Neubig: Got it. I know people are going to ask, so I'll ask, this is a great tool that you're giving for the industry. I'm a big believer in niche trading industries for niche markets. That's what VPN does, right? We basically are niched in property management. And so it costs time, effort, money for you to build all this stuff. We got to ask what's in it for you. How do you benefit from it?

Deb Newell: Well, I think, what did I say at the beginning of this call when I talked about how I grew my property management business? What did I join? I joined local boards because I was the only one. Here's the thing. I did this probably because I get, I'm not kidding, I get inundated with buyers weekly. And that's great. New buyers, like people who've raised a lot of capital, who are like, we have this money, help us find a company. Problem is they just don't have a lot of sellers. Like that's not, a lot of people don't want to sell. Some people don't know they want to sell. And so there is nothing out there today just for property management companies. And that's what, that I knew of, that I would be able to have it available. And I just, I will say I'm kind of in the mindset of you give a little, it comes back. So this is sort of like, it was a passion project that's turned into something super fun for me. And yes, if people are like, I just want to know what I thought. They do their valuation. Let's say they're like, I'm so not happy with that. Or I see a lot of these opportunities that are clearly here. We have articles, you know, like we're going to have like resources out. Then if they're interested, sure. They can contact me. Like we're, we're a partner, Real-Time Consulting services. Yeah. We're an affiliate to PMX, right? This is two separate companies. This is not part of the consulting company. And I do have people employed on the PMX side. So yes, there is a cost incurred, but it's also an opportunity for me to help those who want to just do consulting. I'm Here. But I'm also happy of other people who are coaches or anything, if they want to be a partner and affiliate, I'm not necessarily the right fit for everybody, and I know that, and that's okay. There's other people out there that might be the better fit to get them to a place where they want to be, and I'm okay with that. This is really more of, it turned into something I just, I don't know, it's been very fun. And yes, there will probably be some things eventually. I will always have it to you list for free. I don't believe in taking the list.

Pete Neubig: I'll tell you this, as somebody who built a platform, you know, what you build originally, your original design, and what you think the problem you're solving has morphed into something completely, you know, it's like, you have all these add-ons, and it becomes a different business than what you first envisioned.

Deb Newell: Yeah. And I'm open to that, and I'm okay with it doing that. There's all these, again, this, it's something that I think will eventually change and get, I would love for it to get bigger. But with that will come additional costs, and then I will have to then go, what looks, what would make sense on charging for? The one thing I just don't, I really want to stand behind is that I don't feel like I should pay the list. And these other sites, some of them require you to pay the list. And I just, I don't know, that's not where I feel like the value is. I feel like the value is more maybe a buyer would, just like you would in real estate, a buyer may pay to be a part of something versus a seller.

Pete Neubig: All right, I'm going to ask one last question, but it's going to be a doozy. I had this conversation with a property manager just recently, and we were kind of chatting about it. Obviously, most people know that I sold my business. And he said, like, why would you sell your business? Why wouldn't you just hire a CEO to run your business? And then you just become the owner. Do you ever run into like talking people out of selling the business? Because they're like, I just want to sell because I'm super busy and stressed. But is there a time when, hey, that makes sense versus selling?

Deb Newell: Yes, I think the answer is for some owners, hiring a CEO is the right move. But I think for a majority of property management companies in this industry, it may not be. And I think that comes down to being, it could be a structural or financial or even a psychological reason why financially. I mean, again, if you're between most property management companies, I would probably say fall between 200 and 800 dollars. And at that scale, that margin may not support a CEO level salary on top of the existing cost structure that you already have in place. So, I mean, if you think about it, you know this, Pete, a competent executive leader in property management, that's going to cost me six figures, maybe even on the lower end or maybe just just touching that. So in total compensation. So a company doing, I don't know, 600,000 or maybe a million in revenue with already a 35 to 40 percent labor load that could just make that decision right there. So the real question, I think, becomes, do you spend three to five more years scaling the business to a point where you can support that CEO? Or do you monetize the value that you've already created and let a buyer with existing infrastructure absorb those doors and at a lower marginal cost? I think for many owners, when they really think about it, that second option is probably a better economic decision. And then I think as well, this is where this is where the psychology part.

Pete Neubig: It's like when you slowly like freedom.

Deb Newell: Well, I think that this the organizational like this is my organizational behavior argument on all of this. There's there's also a leadership transfer problem that most owners underestimate. And in organizational psychology, we talk about that founder dependence where a company's client relationships, your vendor relationships, your team culture, that institutional knowledge are all concentrated into one person. And hiring a CEO doesn't transfer those things. It creates a parallel leadership structure that the team, the clients and the vendors all have to learn now to trust. And that transition can take 12 to 24 months on the good end. And many of them, I hate to say it, will fail. And so what the research consistently shows is that the founder led businesses experience the highest risk of value erosion, not when a founder exits, but I think when the founder stays in a diminished role. And so the owner who hires a CEO, but cannot actually let go. No names, like not naming anybody, right, who is still answering calls from their top owners, who is still intervening, intervening on like maintenance decisions or an overriding that new leader, that dynamic destroys more value than a clean sale ever would.

Pete Neubig: So Deb, we're up against the time here. So give us the the website again.

Deb Newell: It's PMXMarketplace.com.

Pete Neubig: PMXMarketplace.com. And if somebody is interested to, you know, talk to you about your consulting services, what's the best way to get in touch with them?

Deb Newell: So they can go to PropertyManagementConsulting.com.

Pete Neubig: PropertyManagementConsulting.com.

Deb Newell: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: And if you're not a member of NARPM, go to NARPM.org.