From 90-Hour Weeks to Strategic Leadership | Chilon Anderson

A Podcast | Chilon Anderson

Pete Neubig: Welcome back everybody to the NARPM radio podcast. I'm your host, Pete Neubig, the voice of NARPM. And I have a good friend of mine, Chilon Anderson from North Carolina. All right, so we're not going to date you, but she's been in real estate since 1993. Many of our listeners were not around in 1993. I was, but many of them weren't. She'd been in property management since the early 2000s and started above all property management in North Carolina in 2011, considered selling in 2019, but now enjoys a residual income that the business produces. Chilon, thank you so much for being here.

Chilon Anderson: It is my pleasure.

Pete Neubig: All right, so you and I connected in North Carolina State Conference and I'm like, and you are a client of VPM, which I really appreciate, but we really got to really know each other in North Carolina. And so we connected there, so I'm like, you got to be on the podcast and you reluctantly said yes. So thank you so much for being here.

Chilon Anderson: Yeah, I think it's going to be fun.

Pete Neubig: All right. So I want to go back in time. Okay. Let's go back to 2011 when you were first getting started. Talk to me about that.

Chilon Anderson: Okay. So I have to go back just a little bit further. I came to North Carolina and I was... I learned property management for a few years. Anyway, so in 2011, I had decided that, gee, I need to be able to finance my daughters going to college without them bringing a big hefty bill, you know, drowning them like you see a lot of college kids having to go into debt for all of that. So it was my dream and my actually promise to my girls, hey girls, I don't want you to carry any debt. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to the Anderson scholarship is a four year scholarship program, and we're going to pay everything that you need to have paid to get you set up for success as an adult. So we did. And so in 2011, my last daughter was just entering into high school. And that's when I said, crud, how am I going to do this? What am I going to do? Here we go. It was property management in my brain and it was property management in my blood. And my husband said, hey, have you ever thought about maybe starting a property management company? And I said, yes, I actually have. And so what do you think about that, Chilon? And I said, I think that's a great idea. So I started, Pete, with twenty five dollars worth of software in my bonus room with three people saying me manage my three doors. And I said, OK, here we go. And that's how it all started in 2011. And I did everything. I did the showings. I did the maintenance request. I did the move in inspections, the move out inspections, the, you know, looking at the contracts, making sure all of the things...

Pete Neubig: The org chart had many boxes and your name was in every one of them.

Chilon Anderson: Every one. Yeah.

Pete Neubig: That's interesting. So you felt that if I create my own business, that will give me the income where I can outpace the the expenses of my daughter's college versus if I just stayed as a as an employee, it's never going to go up. Right. So so is that was that the main factor?

Chilon Anderson: It really was because I knew that my work ethic, you can maybe compete with me on a lot of different areas. You may be smarter than me. You may be prettier than me. You may be faster than me. You may build doors better than me, whatever you want to say. But you're not going to outwork me. I have a work ethic that I get even now. Sometimes I get up at three thirty four o'clock in the morning and I do things and I activate my life. Now, of course, part of that is I do meditation. I do some prayer. I do some just reading good stuff, keeping the brain active. But the other part of that, Pete, is I literally do what's in front of me, which is usually a lot of work in property management. And so I knew that nobody was going to outwork me, nobody. And so I said...

Pete Neubig: I mean, I remember those days when I first started. And I think a lot of us, if we get together at a conference or an event, there's a lot of stories that are very similar, right? Just the water keeps coming, that the tasks keep coming in. You're doing the leasings and the showings and the evictions and the this and the that. So. All right. So now you're getting going.

Chilon Anderson: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: And now, you know, let's fast forward about eight years later. Now you're. Tell me what the PM firm looks like in twenty nineteen.

Chilon Anderson: OK. In twenty nineteen, I have one full time. I'm going to call that person an assistant. But really, they were just offloading the things that I didn't have time to do in the office. So it was assistant, but it was also kind of a property manager helped me to fill in all of my paperwork, making sure, you know, checking behind me, making sure things that I needed to make sure were done were done. And then somebody part time. So I had a full time property management slash assistant. And then I had somebody part time who then just assisted both of us.

Pete Neubig: OK. And you're managing just single family at this. Did you ever decide to do H.O.A. multifamily or did you stay single family?

Chilon Anderson: So in my first go round in property management, I did H.O.A. And I said, no, thank you. I only needed to do that for a few years till I decided, nope, that was not the cup of tea I wanted to drink from. So no, I don't do H.O.A. And I have one. Pardon me. I have like two or three condos and I have, I don't know, maybe 20 or 30 townhomes, but the rest are detached single family.

Pete Neubig: Townhomes consider single family. So in 2019, if you don't mind, how many how many units are you managing back in 2019?

Chilon Anderson: Not many, like maybe 60.

Pete Neubig: OK. All right. But you consider in selling at that time back in 2019?

Chilon Anderson: I was I did just...

Pete Neubig: Did the girls graduated school by then?

Chilon Anderson: Yes. So my last one had graduated college. And and I was like, well, what am I doing this for? Because that really was my driving force the entire time. I said, OK, I don't really need the money anymore. My husband is in real estate sales. He makes a very good income for us. And so we didn't have that pull on our budget anymore. And so I took about a two week trip to Louisiana, listened to some podcasts, listened to some audio books, prayed a lot, talked to some friends. And really what I did and I came back with an understanding that. Well, I picked up a book that I had purchased, so I got to kind of tell a back story. I purchased this book back in 2015 when I was feeling a little burnt out, when I was doing everything. And I purchased this book in 2015, but I never read it. And so I read I went back and I reread this book in 2019 after I got back home after my two week trip. And then all of a sudden everything just went ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. This is this is where you are. This is in your blood, girl. You just have to learn how to, um, make sure that I prioritize the things that I love doing and offload the things that I don't love doing. And so, um, two, two more steps that kind of like came into play with that is I knew I wanted a coach. I needed a business coach to help me get focused and to help me go, okay, Chilon, you you're here all by yourself. And I wanted to be here. Right. And so I did, I hired a coach. I met a young man, um, through one of the NARPM events and he did some personal coaching. I think you probably know him, Jay Baraby. And, um, he was my first property management specific business coach and he just made me start thinking differently and he helped me and he was a very firm coach, but yet perfect for me. Kind of like, here's the next, you know, here's the next little treat, Chilon, walk a few more steps. Right. Cause look, when you don't know, you don't know.

Pete Neubig: Right. Right.

Chilon Anderson: And you got to have somebody out there.

Pete Neubig: Do you remember the book? Do you remember the book?

Chilon Anderson: I do. The book is called God at work. And so, yeah.

Pete Neubig: And so you can't work through the book. If he's just staying on the shelf, you have to actually read it. Right.

Chilon Anderson: Right. For real. And so what I realized at that point is that property management was not just a career or a job or a business. It really was something that I felt very near and dear to my heart was, and I want to use this term very loosely because I don't want churchy people freaking out about, about me saying this, but it kind of was, I felt like it was my ministry. It was where I got to serve people and love on people the way that I knew how. Okay. And I'm, I'm a pretty direct person. So, um, I wanted to be able to take my strengths and serve other people. And, and I just felt like, okay, I have the perfect, I have the perfect vehicle in front of me. And so that's when I said, okay, I'm going to get laser focused. I'm going to listen to and do what my coach says. And here we are 2026.

Pete Neubig: And let's talk about that. I think property management is one of the most rewarding industries. Cause if you think about it, you help so many people, right? You got the, you got your clients and you're taking care of their biggest asset, you know, the most, you know, they're probably the most wealth they have is their assets in the houses. You get to, you get to provide a nice home for a resident and then you get to hire people. Right. And so you get, you get a team and you get to provide, you know, for, for the people get to provide for their families through, through you. And then of course you're giving vendors a bunch of work and you provide it for them and their families too. So I, I just, I think that it's a very admirable industry. So, all right, so now let's talk, now we're in 2026. You decided that you weren't going to, you weren't going to sell the asset. You had that epiphany. Where are you today? Tell me about your structure, a number of folks and also how many hours are you, are you still working all those crazy hours and are you burnt out or getting burnt out? So let's talk a little bit about that.

Chilon Anderson: I will say this first. I get to go to work.

Pete Neubig: I like that.

Chilon Anderson: I get to go to work. You don't have to, you get to. I don't have to. Man, do I love this business. Mondays are one of my favorite days. And you know, Mondays in property management is not a walk in the park. People have lost their ever loving minds over the weekend. If there's a fire to be set, it got set on the weekend and you got to put the fire out. So, but I do love Mondays.

Pete Neubig: I used to stress about Mondays so much that I would work on Sundays and Saturdays.

Chilon Anderson: Oh, that's hilarious. No, I'm really good at turning it off. In fact, my husband sometimes will say, you know, your phone's dinging. And I'm like, yeah, I did. I'll get to it on Monday.

Pete Neubig: Okay.

Chilon Anderson: So my team, my team really makes me look like a rock star. They do. They, they understand what servant and I'm going to call them all leaders. Okay. They understand what servant leadership is. They understand leading with your heart, understanding that renters are not those renters. They are real people who for whatever reason in this season of life, they don't want to own a home. They don't. And I can tell you a couple of different scenarios where I have seen renting was a real blessing to people, right? You know, you got a sick parent and you got a son taking care of that sick parent or a daughter and that's that daughter and that son are out there working all day. They don't want to have to come home and spend money and time on a thing. They want to be able to just make a phone call and then it's taken care of. You know, that's just one of so many different scenarios and why renting.

Pete Neubig: It's why we call them residents and not tenants, right? Tenants kind of derogatory way. They're just a tenant, right?

Chilon Anderson: Yes. And in-house we do say tenants, but like when we try to, when we are in communication with them, we're always, thank you for being such a valued resident. So my team understands that and we understand that sometimes people just want to...

Pete Neubig: How many people are on your team now? Give me some door count, give me structure. Are you podcat? Are you pod?

Chilon Anderson: I think I'm hybrid for the most part. So we have, and here's our structure. I have a managing broker. She's more of my legal compliance. She looks over all of the contracts for both our residents and our owners. And so she makes sure that we stay legal. Keep them, and I call it keeping it between the ditches, right? And so you got to stay on that road if you want to have a business. And then I have an operations manager. She's our liaisons between the tenant, the resident, and also between the owner. And then we have a maintenance coordinator. She handles all things standard and regular ongoing maintenance. Our turns are done in-house between our managing broker and our operations manager. And I am actually interviewing with somebody from your team later on this afternoon to hire myself an executive assistant because I have so many plates I'm spinning. We have 120 doors. And what I like to tell people about that is be careful about how much you judge somebody with few doors because you don't know what my revenue is and you don't know what my profit per door is.

Pete Neubig: Well, I was assuming when I heard 60 and you put two kids through college, that is pretty decent revenue and an RPU. Yes.

Chilon Anderson: Yes, it is. And I will tell you this. Jay helped me to understand that and get to that place. He really did, because I don't know that I really understood it. I just kept saying, I just got to put my head down and I'll just keep working. I'll let somebody else track my numbers later. And so I'm learning all of that right now as we're speaking. I'm going, OK, and I'm tracking my numbers now and I'm looking at my QuickBooks and going, OK, wait, we've got some expenses going out here. We need to make that thinner. So I look at that more from a CEO standpoint right now than I did when I was in the daily operations.

Pete Neubig: You know, it's funny in my talk in NARPM, North Carolina, I talked about who do you have to become? Right. And you start off as the operator. And over time, you take off all the hats, which it seems like you've taken off the majority of the hats. And now you have hopefully just the one hat. Sounds like you've got more, though. But the one hat of CEO.

Chilon Anderson: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: Right. And so you have but you have to learn new skills. You have to look at different things. Right.

Chilon Anderson: Oh, growth is painful, Pete. Growth is painful.

Pete Neubig: Two ways to get there.

Chilon Anderson: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that last statement.

Pete Neubig: Having a coach and reading books are two great ways to get there.

Chilon Anderson: Yes. And your mentor doesn't have to be somebody you talk to in live, live communication. Your mentor can be a book. Your mentor can be Jim Rome. Your mentor can be Brian Buffini. I've never met Brian Buffini in my life face to face other than going to one of his masterminds. But some of the things he teaches. Anyway, so, yes, your mentors don't have to be alive, nor do they have to be in person. They can be people that you're reading about and going, oh, gosh, I needed to hear that. And so you take that and you you dump it in your in your bucket of all of your tricks. And then you go, OK, this is going to mix well with everything that I do.

Pete Neubig: You know, it's something I've changed over the years is I used to try to read as many books as possible. And and what now what I do now is I'll read the same books over and over and I actually study them now. Right. Or I will read a book that pertains to what I'm going through in business or life. And I find out when I read the book multiple times, each time I reread it, I get a different message from the book.

Chilon Anderson: Absolutely. I don't loan my personal books out. I will just buy you a book and give it to you because I take notes. I highlight I take notes and I've written on almost every for sure every chapter I've written notes in these books. And then I go back and go, I yeah, I need to look at that again, which I'm so excited about being able to get hire an executive assistant for myself so that she can then take these or he take all of these notes that I've I've created for years now and go, OK, we're going to put all this together and make it make sense.

Pete Neubig: So let's talk about like, are you are you still working in the business or you're working on the business? And how many days a week you work in? How many hours? Like, what does what does that look like for you today? Because we know back in 2011, it was 90 hour weeks and you were doing everything.

Chilon Anderson: What is what is on today? I usually don't get into the office before 10 o'clock and I make no apologies for that. I'm like, I've put in my time. But you'll see me sometimes here, seven, eight o'clock at night. But then the next day I won't come in at all. So I work probably about twenty five, maybe 30 hours a week in our high season. I'm still the only one who presses go on the money. I have a real a real life story that I heard from somebody who's was very close to them, who embezzled multiples of hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I just I do trust my team. But at the same time, I'm until I don't have any more breath in my lungs, I'm going to go on the money. So I still do that. But I have a team that I've hired. I whatever that's called when you outsource it. Thank you. When you outsource that, I have outsourced to an accounting firm that does all of my bills, takes care of my management fees, takes care of my bills, takes care of all of the paperwork of the owners so that all I have to do now is I review what they've done and press go. So other than that, I'm really working on CEO kind of activities. I'm making sure that my team knows this is what you are responsible for. This is what you own. And we're actually getting ready to roll out a new program to the team that if if these subject matters lie in the area of your expertise, I'm not going to answer any more questions. And I and I think that at the point at that point, you kind of in the cream rises to the crop. You ever heard that one rises to the top, not the cry. Whatever. Anyway, so so I feel like it's going to strengthen them and they'll become more, I think, self-sufficient when they start making their own decisions and falling down sometimes because you got to fall sometimes.

Pete Neubig: So there's two things that that I picked up on there. One was you make no apology coming to 10 o'clock. How like some some of the people that are listening to this are like they feel like they're worth and that because they're the owner of the company, they have to lead from the front or whatever, whatever the crap they want to tell themselves. But they feel like they have to get in before everybody, leave after everybody, work all these hours, work the weekends. How did you make that mind shift? Because you there, you were there, you were that person. How did how did you make that mind shift and say, you know what? I put in these hours. I'm OK with this. Did you just have to do it and just like?

Chilon Anderson: It was like jumping into a pool of cold water at first. You're like. It's really cold. Oh, my gosh. Then your body kind of goes, um, no, that was actually kind of nice not going in till 10 o'clock.

Pete Neubig: And did you worry about like what your team would think of you?

Chilon Anderson: Initially, I did initially. And when I say initially, probably for about a year. So it wasn't like, oh, one and done. And initially in three days, I'm fine. No, it was a discipline. It was a I'm going to make myself do this. And by the way, it wasn't like I announced to everybody. I just started doing it. I started doing what I wanted to do rather than ask permission from my team. So I just started letting them know I'm not available. Or and sometimes I wouldn't even say that I just wouldn't.

Pete Neubig: You find that the team is like, hey, John, like we have we got it like we don't need you here. Like my team is almost pushing me out. Like I was working before I sold. I was about 20 hours a week and my team kept trying to push me even out more, you know, fights. I was a micromanager. I was probably a terrible manager. Who knows?

Chilon Anderson: Pete, one of the things that they tell me all the time is, oh, you're coming into the office. Well, we're not going to get much done today, you know. So it's hard to disrupt them quite often.

Pete Neubig: Because it's funny because we think that the team's like, oh, if they're not working as hard as we are, like, no, it's actually the opposite. Like you're the owner. Like we got this. Like stay out of our business. Yeah. So I'm glad I'm glad you were honest. And thank you for being open and honest about it. Took you a year to kind of to kind of feel that way, you know.

Chilon Anderson: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: Other thing that you said was if you give them something and if they don't know it, like you kind of told me like that's your like you got to figure it out. And what I hear is you used to have a bad case of maybe called superhero-itis, where everybody came to you with the problems and you ripped off your your your shirt and showed the red S underneath and you're like, I got that. How did you make that pivot? Because I got to be honest with you. When I owned Empire, they used to be a line out of my out of my office. And I got my self-worth was how many hours I put in and my other self-worth was they had to come to me for answers. By getting rid of those two things, you literally kind of freed yourself. So tell me a little bit about how you got that piece of it.

Chilon Anderson: Well, it was a personal lesson that I brought over into business. And so the personal lesson was I was seeing a wonderful therapist at the time and my therapist told me that you rescuing your grown son and taking care of the financial aspect of this, that, and the other, you are crippling him, Chilon. Do you, how many women do you know that want a man still tied to mama's aprons? Okay. So I took and I took the, my therapist at his word and I, and I cut the financial apron off. So no more financial apron to this particular son. And, um, he now tells me, so this is probably 12, 13 years ago. He now tells me, mom, that was probably the best thing you ever did. And oh, by the way, I hated it when I was going through it.

Pete Neubig: Sure.

Chilon Anderson: So when I, I remembered that lesson and I went, you know, I got to do that with my team. They got to know that they can swim on their own. So I would start doing things like, okay, you're going to be able to shadow me for these next three to six months. And when I go on this trip and that trip and the other trip next year, don't call me, figure it out. You've got all the education, you've got the experience, you know how to do it, trust your gut. But I also placed really great people. So let's be fair. You got to place people you like, know, and trust in your team. Not just about people who want to do business with you. Cause you know, Pete, every day that they come into the office.

Pete Neubig: So let's talk a little bit about that before that though. But there's a great book that I highly recommend called the one minute manager. It literally, what you're saying is like that book. So I could tell that you read it. Cause like that literally is the book. So now, okay. You found, you have to find good people.

Chilon Anderson: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: How do you, how do you, uh, how'd you go about it?

Chilon Anderson: Same way you find a spouse. You kiss a lot of frogs. You know, I wish it was a beautiful formula. There's not, there's not a beautiful formula. I went through, uh, for four people trying to coach them up, coach them up, coach them up to be my operations manager. And I finally, let's be honest here. I stole my husband's assistant. I did. Okay. Anyway. So she was standing right in front of me all the whole time. And I kept wanting to offer it.

Pete Neubig: You can't just bypass it. He's pushing her aside to get somebody else. She's got her lips all puckered up and she's not even a frog. She was a Swan. And you just, you're like, let me bring this frog. I need this frog.

Chilon Anderson: And so I just kept saying, well, Dave is never going to let her go. He's never going to let me hire her. Jen loves doing what she does. She's never going to come over and see property management, you know, anyway. So I had a conversation with her one day and I just said, Jen, would you ever consider coming to work in property management? Cause she had already voiced to me a couple of the things that she didn't like when she was just being an assistant and a helper. And so I was, I was concerned. I was a little bit of afraid. And so I just got out of my own way and I asked her anyway. And she said, you know, I may, I may do that. She said, but you're going to have to see what Dave says. So I had a conversation with the hubs and I said, Dave, you know, I think that I can afford Jen now. And I think that she can bring a lot of value to our company. And would you please let me hire her? And he gave me a two day, think about it. And he came back and he said, okay, I'm good.

Pete Neubig: Or just didn't want to be divorced.

Chilon Anderson: Or that.

Pete Neubig: Happy wife, happy life.

Chilon Anderson: Yeah. No lie about that. But at the same time, it was a good move for all of us. Um, Jen has a skillset. Like you wouldn't even believe we call her the unicorn and we call her the unicorn. She's one in a million. She really is. And I don't say that to fluff her up. If she does something that I don't approve of, or it's not acceptable or balls drop, I tell her that as well, Jen, you can't, you can't let this ball drop. What, what happened? How did that happen? Let's fix that hole. Right. But, uh, for the most part, she just is really magnificent and she, she's exactly what I needed. So she was right in front of me, but again, I kissed a lot of frogs.

Pete Neubig: How do you, how do you go about not having to kiss as many frogs now? Do you, did you put anything in place? Like, do you do a DISC assessment? Do you have a hiring system or do you like, I'm just old school. Or you're like, I'm going to keep kissing some frogs until I figure it out.

Chilon Anderson: I'm not going to keep kissing frogs to be, to be again, very transparent. Um, I saw that I'm not a great interviewer or a great hirer. So I engaged with VPM and that is maybe a shameful plug for your company, but literally that is exactly what I've done. I said, I'm not going to do this anymore. I'm just going to, I talked with your guy and, um, Leon, I think is his name. Yes. He's a sweetheart by the way. And so, um, I just, I, you know, you've got to know what you're good at and know what you're not good at as well. And I'm, I'm not very good at picking people out for my positions. I can tell you what I don't want and I can tell you where I want strengths, but being able to discern when they're just bold face lying to you. Maybe it's cause I interview out of desperation versus, I don't know. I don't really know what my problem is there, but all I know is I don't do it well. So you hire into that position, you hire somebody who does it well.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. Yep.

Chilon Anderson: So that's, yeah.

Pete Neubig: Whether it's somebody on your team, right. Could be somebody on your team that ends up doing that. Right.

Chilon Anderson: Actually, Jen had done some of that for me for some of the positions, but still I found local positions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. Uh, that's why you utilize us, right. You leverage us because we have a whole system. Like we, we try to weed out, you know, we have a weeding out.

Chilon Anderson: And, and I'm participating in your, I think it's called gold glove.

Pete Neubig: Yep.

Chilon Anderson: So all I have to do is like, Oh, bring me the people and let's figure out if that's a good culture match for me. You know, you've done all the hard lifting and, and here's what I've been noticing about myself lately, Pete, since I've taken on the hat of CEO, tell me that you're going to make it easy for my life and business. And then show me that you're going to do that with actions behind it.

Pete Neubig: That's right.

Chilon Anderson: And if you can do that, then we're going to be besties. Tell me to do that. If you're going to complicate my life, if you're going to make things harder than what they already are, then I don't need to, I'm not going to consider that whatever it is, a vendor, a new, a new owner, right.

Pete Neubig: It could be even a client.

Chilon Anderson: It could be. And many times it is, that's when you have to learn how to gracefully say, I don't think we're a good fit for one another.

Pete Neubig: So what's, what's next for you? Are you going to, are you going to reduce more hours? Like what's the, give me the, give me what's next for, for your company, for above all property management for the next, you know, next year, this year in 2026.

Chilon Anderson: Okay. We're being very strategic about growth. I don't, and I've said it many, many times. I'm not just growth for growth sakes. I don't need bragging rights on how many doors. You know, I don't need that. I work for my family. I work for me. I work for the satisfaction of doing a really great job for my people. And so what I strategically have decided and have the full agreement of my husband and partner in this is that we're hiring somebody to do, I'm gonna continue being the front person. I'm going to continue bringing in all of the leads and we're hiring somebody to do all of the tying the shoe really nice and neat and getting them under contract. We've got that going in place. I'm hiring an executive assistant for me so that somebody can look at my emails and feed through those 500 emails when you're out of town and say, hey, Chilon, here's the red flags on the ones you gotta look at. Here's the yellow ones, don't worry about it. Green, get to it whenever you want to. So processing all of that, I'm gonna look at that and say, it's probably gonna get to be six months before I can actually step back more hours. But my goal is by the end of this year or the beginning of next year, I should be able to come in two to three days a week, spend three to six hours on those days impressing upon my team how much they're valued and loved, letting them know where the vision is going and seeing how can I bless my team more. People don't leave companies and processes, people leave people. And if I make it so desirable for them to want to work here, then no matter how much crap we have to go through, pardon my language, but we then have some stickiness in our team and if you don't have a sticky team, you're just gonna keep going through, going through, going through, going through, going through and that is exhausting, it's exhausting. So that's my goal. And then at that point, Dave and I are gonna buy a motor home, we're gonna travel and we're gonna work remotely in our RV and I don't know, act like old grandmas, go visit all of our grandkids and do fun things.

Pete Neubig: Congratulations, because what you just spit out to me was literally CEO. You talked about culture, vision and strategy. That's it, those are the main, those are probably the three main functions of a CEO, which you're doing now. Well, thank you so much for being on the show today. We really appreciate it or I really appreciate it. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, what's the best way to contact you? Now that you have an executive assistant, by the time this airs, they can maybe email you, right?

Chilon Anderson: Yeah, they will be able to. So you can go to our website aboveallpm.com and you can reach out to us through there. Our phone number is 919-341-9555. And so that is our general phone number, but you know what? I think that the easiest way to reach out to me is probably go to the website and just say, hey, just would like to chat with Chilon about how you guys are doing your work there. We have all the things, you can fill out the paperwork online, but it eventually gets to me.

Pete Neubig: Excellent. And if you're listening to this and you're inspired to join NARPM, go to narpm.org, narpm.org, or you can give them a call at 800-782-3452. And if you're looking for a remote team member and you don't have time to hire, you don't have a hiring process, use our Gold Glove service. You can go to vpmsolutions.com or you can email me directly, pete@vpmsolutions.com. Chilon, thanks so much for being here. See you, everybody.

Chilon Anderson: Thank you, Pete.