A Podcast | Thad Tarkington

Pete Neubig: Welcome back, everybody. And as promised, Thad Tarkington, CEO, co-founder, and just extraordinary human being, Thad Tarkington Second Nature. How are you, buddy?

Thad Tarkington: Pete, I'm doing fantastic. Excited to chat with you today, man. It'll be fun.

Pete Neubig: Now, if somebody lives under a rock, and actually listening to this podcast, and they never heard of Second Nature, just tell us... Give me a little high level of what Second Nature does. But more importantly, I want to know how you decided to come up with the whole concept of Second Nature. And just tell us a little bit about the backstory.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah, absolutely. So what Second Nature does is, we provide a resident experience platform for professional property managers. And so the idea is, is we have a suite of over half a dozen different resident facing services. And all of these services are designed to drive value to the resident, to improve operations for the the property manager and drive value to the investor as well. So what we call our triple win lens is how do you provide something that improves or adds value to all three parties involved in long term rental real estate? And, you know, then the platform is really, how do we bring all that into one cohesive offering. So when you think about working with Second Nature, I'd really think about it as your extension to provide a value add suite of services to your residents. And those services, it's all rolled up into one partner helping you design this service offering, marketing, listing, leasing and fulfillment ongoing. So it becomes easy. You know, it's like Second Nature. So that's where the name came from. You know, property management is a really tough business. Nobody's ever calling you to say thank you. Right. They only call when there's a problem.

Pete Neubig: They only call you when they have their attorney on on speed dial.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, they only call when there's a problem and so we want to make be the easiest most convenient way to do this, right? So it's all about how do we take things off the plate. Naturally, with anything. You know, if you're going to do something new and add six, seven, eight services to your offering, you know there's going to be some work. But our goal is to make that as convenient and easy as possible. So that's kind of what Second Nature does is all in one resident services.

Pete Neubig: Now, I've been familiar with you and your team for years, and if I recall, it was FilterEasy when you guys first rolled out.

Thad Tarkington: Yep.

Pete Neubig: So talk to me a little bit about, like, you know, how you started. Like, what made you decide? Where was the inspiration behind FilterEasy. And then talk about how you've morphed into Second Nature. If you can.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So FilterEasy was started in 2012. My co-founder Kevin and I, we're actually going to NC state together. And we're running the collegiate entrepreneurship organization at the school. And as part of that, we'd see a ton of investors and different folks come through and, you know, entrepreneurs, business owners, etc. and they just share, you know, about their business, how they got started. And, you know, for us, it was really interesting and fascinating to see all these stories. And we were pretty intrigued and and looking at different business models. And one day we started talking about this idea for an air filter subscription. My co-founder had a very visible, disgusting air filter in his college apartment. It was in the pantry, actually. He's like, man, these things, uh, you know, it's gross. I need to change it. It's hard to change. And so, you know, the idea really started with, pretty much every home in America has an air filter. They need to be changed on a regular basis depending on, you know, the HVAC and the location, etc. but we're like, all right, you need to do this several times a year. There's multiple sizes, multiple quantities per house. There's different qualities, like it's this confusing product. And so we're like, this is perfect for a subscription. One time you take a quiz, figure out exactly what you need for your home. Once that decision is made, you know you never have to think about it again. It just shows up in your door the day you need to change it. So that was the original idea.

Pete Neubig: The original idea was basically to go after homeowners.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah, exactly. We launched. It was a consumer direct business. Yeah. And we had signed up, you know, we were signing up, tens of thousands, eventually, you know, hundreds of thousands and over a million homeowners that have signed up for and kind of experienced that service. But you know, early on, I think this was like a year in, we started to notice when we were looking at our customers. You know, essentially there's some people who had had a second home, a vacation home, maybe their parents or something like that. But then we started to notice these people putting in dozens of different addresses. And I would look at their, their URLs and their email and I'd say, something property management. So I started to call them and they're like, yeah, I saw your ad on Instagram and none of my residents changed their filters. Obviously a little hyperbole, but like, hey, they don't change them. They're required to in the lease.

Pete Neubig: And it's true. None of them changed the filters.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. Very few. And so they're like, hey, they're required doing the lease. They don't do it. I get HVAC damage, my investors or owners get upset. And so that's when we said, all right, how can we work with you to create a better, uh, better solution here? And so, you know, we designed a solution where we're putting, you know, instructions and branding on the packaging so they know it's from the manager. We, you know, cleared up some of the lease language, say, hey, here's here's the responsibility, here's how you're going to do it here. Um, we date the filters so you can have accountability. Right. So we put this whole program together. And ultimately we found a ton of property managers saying, hey, this is awesome. I'm able to add a new service, add a new revenue line item. My owners love it because I'm taking care of their asset. You know, it's super convenient for the resident. They're saving money in their energy bills. And that's really where the idea of like, you know, this concept of, okay, we're bringing a service to a property manager, creating a new business line for them. And this whole idea of the triple win. How do we benefit everybody was born. And so, you know, call that that was around 2014, 2015. You know. So it's been over a decade since we've been in the property management world. And, you know, you ask like, how did Second Nature come to be? And the short answer is, I got to know a ton of people in the space. Really loved the category of property management. It's an interesting business. And, you know, both on the operator side and on the vendor side, what I saw was people have an appetite to deliver new things, but it can be really challenging if... You know, let's say you want to offer something that might mean you have to go through 2 to 3 different vendors and do several phone calls, and then you have to do a contract and onboarding and billing and account management. So it's like if I wanted to offer.

Pete Neubig: Before you get into changing the management agreement or changing the lease agreement or changing your policy.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. Like exactly. You nailed it. It's like there's even more. And so imagine you wanted to offer seven different resident offerings. You're like, okay, that's 21 vendors that I have to talk to probably 2 to 3 times each. I'm talking like 70 calls and then I'm going through seven Onboardings seven contracts. There's seven account managers. If I'm talking to them quarterly, it's like, you know, it's a lot. And that's where we said, okay, you know, as we started looking at additional ways we could bring value to our customers and we saw the overlap, we said, hey, we're already covering so much of this in our conversation. You know, there's an opportunity where we can bring significant value to the property manager and do it in a way that's efficient for everybody. And so, that was kind of our concept is, the more value we can bring, it increases the overall value. It streamlines operations and, you know, really makes this more cost effective and efficient for everybody. You know, the property managers, the resident, by bringing more value kind of in an efficient manner.

Pete Neubig: So you basically work with all those account managers and all those vendors and build all the language in the management agreements and the leases and you kind of package it all. So now I just go with Second Nature. Second Nature says great, pick which ones you want. And I could have seven, eight, ten different offerings  to my residents.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah, you nailed it. And, you know, for us, we've kind of taken a little bit of a rifle approach to product offering, meaning, you know, every product we've offered, we've spent some time really look to understand it. Looked at what's the best way to to bring this to market, and then ultimately with everything, you don't get everything right all at once, you know. And so we're constantly iterating and trying to innovate and upgrade things. Um, still a ton of opportunity to improve and grow a lot of the stuff we do. But like, ultimately, you know, we'll say, hey, this is a good value prop, moves the needle with the triple win lens. You know, we've kind of brought stuff to market. And we've been doing that now in the space over ten years and have a number of offerings in the market today.

Pete Neubig: So so what are some of the offerings that you have right now. Because we know we got a new product that just rolled out in March.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: So I want to talk about that here in a second. But what is I know you guys let me see if I, if I get a few of them. I know you guys do utility concierge. Obviously you do filters. Pet pest. Pest. Uh, what is it? Uh. Pest control?

Thad Tarkington: Yep.

Pete Neubig: On demand. Pest control. Um, insurance? You guys doing insurance?

Thad Tarkington: Yup.

Pete Neubig: Okay. And that's tenant liability and tenant contents insurance. Oh, yeah. Insurance tenant. Alright. Alright, I got I got four. What else?

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. You're pretty good. We also do on. Yeah. So I kind of think of stuff of like homes have this physical aspect and you also have the financial health of the residents. So we've kind of got stuff in both categories, but, you know, around the home.

Pete Neubig: Credit reporting?

Thad Tarkington: Yes, we do credit reporting for the resident. We have identity theft protection.

Pete Neubig: Oh, nice.

Thad Tarkington: And monitoring there just to make sure everything's in good shape and then you have, you know, insurance obviously on the protection side kind of plays on both sides. And then on the operational side, you have things around utilities, as you mentioned, you know, on demand, pest control, air filter delivery, you know, really saying, hey, how do we solve these operational problems? And I like to think of what are friction points, you know, in the management life cycle of a resident of really where is there an expectation the resident would do something but they may not have read it, they may not know. So it's like rather than let a problem happen and then you're duking it out to see whose responsibility. And you know, regardless, everybody's a little upset. How can we kind of proactively solve some of these problems or streamline them? So like everything's budgeted for, there's a seamless process that's well documented on how to solve certain problems. Like that's kind of the the, the bigger idea in a lot of these things is how do we drive compliance, simplicity and operationalize, you know, a lot of these things. But yeah, that's that's the kind of the product suite today. And as you mentioned, you know, I'd call everything, you know, when you bring to market. We're super excited about. But this is one of the bigger products we've been working, you know, for several years on really to bring together, you know, that we think is transformational to the management operation. So excited to tell you about it.

Pete Neubig: So all right, let's get to it then. What is uh, drum roll please. What is the new product offering?

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. So the new product, we, uh, we just launched, it is Group Rate Internet, is what we're calling it. And what we've effectively brought for, you know, scattered site property managers and, you know, single family. It included in that is, for the first time ever, you know, we've worked out with, you know, the major ISPs, a program where we can offer internet as an amenity with the property. So when you lease the property, it just comes with internet. And we've worked out a great deal where by, you know, grouping all of your properties together, we're able to deliver a double digit percent discount on internet to the resident, as well as make the property manager 10 to $15 a month. And we handle everything end to end. So we help you with all the leasing language. Once they sign their lease and, um, you know, they're ready to move in. Our team works with them to get equipment and activation and get online. And then, you know, in perpetuity. We're available if there's any questions. So, uh, call it a, a seamless experience when I think about, you know, that triple win lens, right. You know, the value from that, the properties are bringing to the resident is, you know, this discount, right? So if you think about, you know, gig internet, right. This is gig internet, high speed internet. Um, you know for the home typically you know, retail add, you know, to over $100 depending on the market you're in. You know, a lot of times at year two and year three you'll see these prices go up. Um. In this case, it's flat rate. You know, for that property. So you you know exactly what you're paying. You know, we're able to bring, you know, this to the resident, you know, at a 20% plus discount to what they pay at retail, and able to deliver value, you know, to the property manager as well. So big savings to the resident and then from the property manager, you know, this is a very convenient way to offer this, right. They just um, you know, what comes with the property. It saves the whole step of having to go look at offerings, create accounts, sign up. You know, and the market it all. You know, we obviously, you know, there's, um, some, some work involved with, you know, getting your equipment activating, but we conveniently handle that with the resident, and it just comes with the property.

Pete Neubig: All right. So I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. So let me let me kind of connect the dots here. So, for a resident I get to when I lease the property, it comes with internet already And I have a bill. Do I get billed or is that built into the the lease amount typically?

Thad Tarkington: Yep. You just you nailed it. It's built in right. So it comes with the properties and amenity priced into the total payment amount.

Pete Neubig: Okay. So alright. So I'm just going to throw random numbers guys I'm not putting this is not numbers that real numbers. Right. But let's just say a property rents for $1,000. Typically this property comes with internet. So I'm going to go ahead and it's going to be $1,080. Right. Let's just say the internet was 100 bucks. They get a 20% discount $1,080. Now, the first question I have, um, because I still think like a property manager, even though I, I only play one on on the podcast these days.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: How do you overcome that now? My rental price is higher than somebody else if they're just doing a search on, you know. So, um, I guess you have to be very mindful of that in your, um, in your advertising.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So one I would delineate between, you know, in the listing and this is where we help you with the proper listing marketing is this is not part of your rent. Right. It's a it's on top of the rent. Um, and so that's where, you know, in that example the rent would be 1000. But hey, this property comes with gig internet and your example at 80 bucks. So hey, we're bringing you gig internet at a 20% savings comes with the property. Um, so it's conveniently there when you move in. You don't have to, you know, go through extra steps to shop for it and sign up.

Pete Neubig: But as far as the property manager is concerned, on their line item, they have 4000 rent, $1,080. They don't have a line item, rent 1000 and an internet $80.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: Right.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah, yeah. The way I think about this, and obviously this is a little bit of the onboarding weeds, but happy to touch on since you brought it up.

Pete Neubig: I'm a detail guy, man.

Thad Tarkington: I love it, I love it, man. So when you think about it.

Pete Neubig: You're literally onboarding me. I don't know if you realize it. You're onboarding me right now.

Thad Tarkington: I love it. Yeah. So if you think about in the ledger, you know, you're going to have a separate charge associated with the internet specifically. So, yeah, if you think about for a resident, like the way I think about it, if I'm a resident is like, I have my lease, you know, I may have some different utility fees, I may have something associated with, you know, internet and pets and things like that. But at the end of the day, hey, I'm paying in this property. I'm paying 1250 bucks a month. Is my total out the door payment. But if I were to look at the ledger and the breakdown, I could see what's going for what.

Pete Neubig: Um, as a resident, if I decided I don't want internet, which I don't know anybody who doesn't, but is that something that they can talk to the manager and say, listen, I don't, I don't I want the house, but I don't want the internet. Is that negotiable typically or I mean, yeah. Yeah. So infrequently it doesn't really matter.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. Great question. So with um. So I'll start with a fun fact for you. 98% of, uh, people have broadband home internet. And if you're like me, it made you wonder, like, what are the 2% do?

Pete Neubig: Like, yeah, I.

Thad Tarkington: Don't have internet. Um, but, you know, you nailed this. What? What is such a great value prop, you know, about this and why we're so excited is 98% of your people are proactively spending time and effort to go get this? So now you're delivering something you know, better price, more convenience, you know, and convenience drives, you know, so much value to folks. I mean, if you look at the the you know what what people spend money on today and how we live, it's all about how do we find time, drive, convenience. So, you know, to answer your question, 98% have it, you know, the, um, the 2% that do not, um, they're typically using hotspots from their phone or something, you know, or.

Pete Neubig: Or they're like 98 years old and.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. Yeah, there's again there's, there's, uh, something for everyone. But yeah, the the short answer.

Pete Neubig: Let me ask you, this.

Thad Tarkington: Um, yeah. Go ahead.

Pete Neubig: What? When somebody moves and I don't know this, and I'm actually asking because I don't know. But if somebody moves, let's say I have. I have internet in my house right now. I'm on a contract. If I move and I go rent another house, um, can I get out of that other contract typically? Like, if I'm if I'm a, um, you know, a user, an internet user already, like, so what happens in that case is there is there any challenges there or they typically can get out because they're moving. Um, you know, even if I'm moving.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. No. Yeah. One value of this is we really designed this to work with the way that professional managers and long term rentals work. So this is really tied to your lease, right? So if somebody's moving into a new property, it's a new move. And that's at the point of, you know, when you would begin service, of course, is when you move into the property and then, you know, it's tied to your lease. So as long as you're, you know, in that home leasing and using that property, you know, you'd you get your internet, but when that lease ends and you decide to move, you know, it's clean, right? You don't have to worry about a separate contract.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. You're not tied to any contract. But what if I'm moving into the house and I have a contract already. Do you know if most internets, like, allow you to add?

Thad Tarkington: Great question? Yeah. So to your point, you know, the the short answer to all these questions is it depends, right?

Pete Neubig: Yeah.

Thad Tarkington: Because, yeah, um, every ISP, every market is going to be slightly different. So I will say will probably be tough to give like accurate answers that apply to the, you know, the whole market, you know, and we are rolling this out on a nationwide perspective doesn't mean we'll have coverage at every location but, you know, have do broad coverage across the US. Uh, but short answer to your question is, you know, a lot of these, um, you know, um, internet agreements that do have different contracts or terms or conditions with them. Um, and so, you know, if somebody was moving out mid cycle in a contract. That could be something you know. That applies. But again it's part of the the Second Nature way. We'd want to. Talk to that resident and see how we can be helpful and make a smooth transition. But that that should be a very low. Use case because you know, most people, when they're moving out from their home, it's probably after they've been living there a few years and they've reached that contract period.

Pete Neubig: Now, let's say the person does move out. So okay, so they come in, they get the internet, they're super happy. They're paying way below market. They're super happy to getting gig internet. Um, now they move out. They don't get the internet anymore because they came with the house. They have to go get their own internet for the next house for, you know, somebody who's not a professional property manager. Right. And, uh, they don't have these cool offerings. Um, now what happens? Does the bill now stay with the property manager? And when the house is vacant, is the property manager? Am I on the hook for that bill? Until I until I get that house refilled.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah, great. Great question. So, um, if you look at the way, you know, traditionally.

Pete Neubig: If you all thought this was going to be an easy interview with dad, you're wrong. I'm asking him some some tough ones here.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah, yeah. No. Yeah. So if you look at traditionally, you know, the way, um, you know, this offering may work if you think about, like, you know, a large community, an HOA or, or, um, you know, multifamily, where a lot of times when they're building a new multifamily or community, you know, there's construction costs and they're kind of tying this in, um, you know, on a call it ten year cycle. And it, you know, it's just kind of a broad contract in a lot of ways. You know, there's some similarities. Um, so I would say, like behind the scenes, there are definitely a different requirements to make this work with the ISPs. Um, you know, but what we're delivering to the market is a very clean experience of, you know, Adam, you know, when that lease comes on and move in. Um, we're able to deliver, uh, the internet, uh, with the properties. And then if that resin moves out during vacancy, we're able to work with you. You know, we basically can handle that. Uh, turn off. So it's a very clean experience that works with professional manager. So.

Pete Neubig: Um, so the the the manager makes a is a this could be a profit center for the manager. Is that correct. So.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. Yeah. So the way we like to think about it is um, you know this will drive $10 to $15 per unit per month to the property manager. Um, as well as delivering, you.

Pete Neubig: Know, so if I had to pay for a couple of vacants every once in a while, I'm still making tons of money based on those other properties that I have that are.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. For clarity. Sorry, I maybe went long winded. We've designed it where you don't have to take vacancy risk that we handle that for you. Yeah.

Pete Neubig: Well, that's that's a great answer right there. Way better than that long answer.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's I was more clarifying. That's not necessarily how the industry works. Um, but we've, we've kind of, uh, simplified that and normalized that for the property manager so we can work with them to, you know, if they don't want to take vacancy risk, we can handle that for them.

Pete Neubig: How many units would I have under management before this becomes something that, you know, um, I should look into? Is it one or is it, you know, hey, wait till you get about 50. Like what? What are your, I know that's subjective, but what's your opinion?

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. I mean, in my opinion, since you asked my opinion. But no, to answer your question, you know, we work with property managers of all shapes and sizes. So, you know, we'd love to have a conversation with anyone, but, um, you know, I would typically think about it if, you know, if you have one unit, you're probably trying to get that second unit. You know, it's, uh, so, um, but, you know, we we're, uh, we're, uh, we welcome, uh, you know, different folks if. Yeah, if you'd love to talk to us, we'd love to talk to you, but. Yeah.

Pete Neubig: What are you guys finding when people start reaching out to you for, for your, you know, for your, um, you know, your packages? Is it they or is it like, are they more mature and, and, uh, they wait or do you see that? Like, they're kind of when they first start up, they, they just want to get this going as, as they start up.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. So we work with people of all sizes. I mean, you mentioned like, you know, units we work with a lot of the um, if you think about these franchise operators. Right. New franchises start with one unit. Right. And we work with them. And, um, you know, from the ground up. And we also work with operators that have, you know, tens or sometimes over 100,000 units that they manage. Right. So we'll work with really anyone, um, of any size. That being said, if I think about, like, you know the folks that, um, you know, the operations, like when you start to get, you know, hundreds of units and you've got, you know, a team obviously that can give you more bandwidth. So but look, we've got great operators with, you know, 60 units and they might have a few folks helping them out. Um, and a contract way, but kind of a solo operator who they.

Pete Neubig: Might even have some virtual team members from VPM Solutions. You never know.

Thad Tarkington: I was teeing you up there, but exactly like you got a virtual team member. You got some support. It's, uh. But. Yeah, that's. Yeah, it really so much depends on the operator and their goals. And, you know, I know folks who again, like 50, 60 units and they're like, this is a great business. You know I've got the right support, whether it's through VPM or someone else.

Pete Neubig: Lifestyle business I got yeah I got control of my life and I'm making great money. So let me ask you this. One of the challenges that most property managers have is just time, right? They just don't have a lot of time. Um, and so they would love to implement stuff that's new. It sounds complicated. Um, you know, hey, I got these eight offerings, and we do all these things. Um, so how do you guys make like you've, you've touched on this a couple times, but I really want to get through people's heads, like by working with you guys. Like, it's literally hands off. And it's literally like the onboarding is really like a very, very easy transition into the onboarding. So talk a little bit about that and maybe, you know, quell some fears that like oh, this is just way too complex and too difficult for me to onboard with Second Nature.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. So I would say. You know, if I think about who we are as a company and what we're looking to do first and our name, Second Nature, that came from we want to be the easiest company to work with like it's Second Nature now. You know, am I saying you don't have to do anything? Obviously that's not, you know, reality or possible. Right? There's work to do, onboarding. But our goal and our strategy as a business is to, not give you one more thing to do. Give you one less thing to do. Take on as much as we can and make this hyper convenient, you know, whether that's leveraging tooling or people. And when I think about the people side, you know, one of our, you know, when I think about our core values as a company, one of them is every time you see me, you know, you're going to see a better version of me. And we want to be the most thoughtful, um, kind of company, you know? And so, like, it really is about how do we listen? How can we be helpful? How can we make this convenient? Like, that's what we believe. Now, that does not answer your question directly. That's just more about who we are and our and our focus. But when I think about the question specifically, you know, the typical person we work with, if someone really wanted to crank through it, right, we could do one call and just walk through, here's all the outcomes we can drive the total value prop, and help you configure the exact, you know, resident experience you want to offer for your properties. And then from there, we'd wrap up our agreement, do, um, an onboarding process, and then we're up in, you know, we're up and running. So, you know, there is some different work we try and take on as much as we can and kind of coach you through it, but it truly is something where we can put you in the driver's seat as an executive decision maker. You can just listen, learn, make decisions, and we can kind of help, you know, drive the ship from there.

Pete Neubig: And I like that once it's implemented, you guys basically handle like 95% of of all the activity that needs to be done. That is true. Is that a fair assessment?

Thad Tarkington: Yeah, that that is that is the target. So and if uh, you know, if anyone's listening that works with us and they, you know, they don't feel that or think there's, there's any opportunity to improve. Like, I would love, love you to reach out. I'd love to talk to you about that, but that's that's what we're looking to deliver. And eventually we'd love to make it, you know, as close to 100% as possible.

Pete Neubig: Yeah, man. When I was building Empire, man, I'm like, oh, man, I want to I want to offer this incredible service. And we kept falling short and people were churning left and right. And I'm like, yeah, we still got a grow, we still gotta do. And we eventually got there. Um, it takes a while. We're all building businesses. There's there's always stuff that happens and there's growth and there's people and there's things, and. But you guys are doing a great job. You guys have done a got a great name in the industry. And, uh, appreciate all you do for NARPM, I know you guys do a lot of stuff. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to put you on the the lightning round. Alright. We'll be right back, everybody.

Pete Neubig: Alright. We're back. Thad Tarkington you're getting ready to the lightning round. Here we go.

Thad Tarkington: Here we go.

Pete Neubig: What is one piece of advice you'd give someone just starting out in business?

Thad Tarkington: One piece. Let's see. I'd go with the, Don't give up. Uh, you know, believe in yourself and know you'll make it. But that doesn't mean you should, uh, put horse blinders on, right? Take, uh, To take feedback. Be smart about where you're investing your time and resources, but like, stick at it and eventually you'll you'll make something happen.

Pete Neubig: What do you think I'm. This is even on the lightning round. But I'm curious. What is. What do you think is one mistake you made early on that you would tell your younger self, "Don't do that."

Thad Tarkington: Gosh, how much time do we have? Uh. One mistake.

Pete Neubig: Or one thing you could have just done better.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah, I.

Pete Neubig: If I would've known this ten years ago. 15 years ago? Like that would have been. That would have been super, super helpful.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah, yeah. So I think, um, I mean. Yeah, I would say, um.

Pete Neubig: I stumped you.

Thad Tarkington: I would say, early on. Sorry. My, actually, I hear my, uh, through the door. I hear, uh, my I have a 14 month old and he's crying. He was distracting me. But no, I, um, if I were to say one thing, I think, um, look, so much of business is about people, and it's about how do you have clear communication? Um, how do you get everyone aligned? And, and so I remember early on, I thought so much like, all right, like, you know, it's just it's about the product, the customers. And obviously that's that's true. But like, at the end of the day, people are what bring everything together. And so I think spending a lot of time really focusing on here is everyone here aligned at your company. Right. And maybe you're starting out. It's just yourself right. And that becomes easy. So maybe that doesn't apply to the, you know, the solopreneurs just starting out. But once you start to build that team, um, you know, spending a good amount of time to make sure that everybody's excited about where we're headed, they're aligned, you know. If there is critical feedback, taking it and getting people to understand the why of what you're doing, and then, you know, if you're all aligned and you understand the why, then you can go really far and fast.

Pete Neubig: I love it. Does pineapple belong on pizza?

Thad Tarkington: I eat everything, so I won't not eat it, but I'm not ordering it.

Pete Neubig: Fair enough. Um, does Second Nature use virtual team members?

Thad Tarkington: Second Nature does. Yeah. So we, um, you know, we have, um, you know, about 300 folks at the company. And I would say in our business, mostly, uh, US-based, uh, but we do leverage some, uh, you know, some different resources. Um, you know, just call them virtual, uh, for some different things. And they've been great.

Pete Neubig: All right. What was your first job?

Thad Tarkington: My first job? I think it was a lifeguard. It was that or Quiznos. I, uh, I worked at a lifeguard. I was a lifeguard in Quiznos around the same time. Uh, so.

Pete Neubig: All right, the lifeguard who is eating Quiznos.

Thad Tarkington: Oh yeah, it was Quiznos is great that that toaster oven, man.

Pete Neubig: Yeah, that was their big differentiator till subway came up. Found a toaster somewhere. Shocker. Uh, what is your ideal vacation?

Thad Tarkington: Oh, I mean, for me, I, I love some action. So it is not sitting on a beach, although I've done that, and it's fun. But, you know, I like to go somewhere interesting. I love music, so maybe traveling somewhere cool. That's got some good music. That's. That's probably my ideal vacation.

Pete Neubig: Awesome. What is something most people don't know about you?

Thad Tarkington: Hmm. Let's see a fun fact. I used to do a ton of yoga so I can do a lot of handstands and weird, uh, you know, balancing things. So I'm a little rusty. I'm not as bendy as I once was, but, uh, the balance is pretty good. Still.

Pete Neubig: I can only get into savasana.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: What is a book or podcast that has impacted your business or life that you would recommend?

Thad Tarkington: All right. On the, uh, the front of uh, or off the back of, uh, of talking about people, uh, one book I read a few years ago, I think it was called Trillion Dollar Coach. I thought it was a great book, I think Bill Campbell, uh, but he was a leadership coach and, um, exec and worked with a lot of, uh, you know, some of the, the all time great companies out there. Products we use every day and help coach your team. So learned a ton reading that.

Pete Neubig: I've actually read that book on your recommendation through, uh, Sean Johnson had, like, a little book club thing that he did for a little bit.

Thad Tarkington: Nice.

Pete Neubig: And, uh. Yeah.

Thad Tarkington: So hope you liked it. I was like, maybe I should give it another. I'd given that one before I.

Pete Neubig: No, no, I think I, I hey, listen, man, sticker works. If that's really the one that really you, you know, has impacted you, then yeah.

Thad Tarkington: There's probably 5 or 10 that I would call big winners that have been good.

Pete Neubig: So got it. Alright, what is one challenge you're currently facing in your business?

Thad Tarkington: Hmm. You know, I'd say I mean, we're constantly growing and, um.

Pete Neubig: I would think at 300 something. Plus, I'm guessing people is always a constant.

Thad Tarkington: God. I'm like again, how long do you have? I mean, there's a lot of challenges, but I think. Yeah. You know, when you're growing fast, there's just a lot of moving parts. It's like, how do you get all the the trains to run on time? How do you get tight communication? Well, you know, things synced. And you know, one thing I've found, you know, as we've grown is, you know, things that are minor problems. The bigger you get, they start to become major problems. And it takes time. It takes effort to get those resources and get them solved. But if you can really get them solved and operationalized, then that, you know, can really become a huge value to, you know, your, your customers and really a differentiator for us there. So I'd say a lot of stuff just operationally as we're growing, we're cranking through trying to improve, um, but, you know, making great progress. Uh, um, and um, ton of work to do.

Pete Neubig: You guys done an incredible job with your core values. I see all these people at all these conferences. I see people that are at the local shows, and you've done a great job with that. Um, give me, uh, you know, what's one thing that you guys do that really, you know, focus on pushing that culture down across 300 plus people all over the world. Is there anything that you're like, man, that this this really worked or just, you know, there's a bunch of little things that just add up to it.

Thad Tarkington: Yeah. So, um.

Pete Neubig: And I know it's a loaded question. I know we can go in 30 minutes on that. And this is the lightning round. So just kind of real, real super high level.

Thad Tarkington: Okay. Yeah. So I mean, I think a big thing we do is so we have an all hands call every week and we do a breakout, uh.

Pete Neubig: All hands meeting everybody in the organization?

Thad Tarkington: Everybody in the organization. Every week we get on a call and we cover some different operational things, but we take 15 minutes. We popcorn the group into small groups of four. So you get a chance to meet people you don't talk to regularly. And every week we have a prompt for a discussion topic. And they're centered around our core values. So it's just a way to get people to yeah get them in front of people. Right. So instead of it being something you read in an orientation manual, you know, or maybe it's painted on the wall somewhere or a picture, um, you know, every week we talk about them, we give practical examples of, hey, these core values, these are not like ways to live, but there are ways that these are operating principles that we choose that Second Nature today. These are how we make decisions. Right? That's what our core values are. Um, and they change over time. Right. As the company grows and scales, you know, things change, right? But this is how we're choosing to operate. So these are that's really how I think about our core values. It's not like, what's the right thing to do or what's best for you. Like some of our core values may not make sense for a lot of walks of life, but for the way that we operate as a company, you know, this is how we're choosing to operate.

Pete Neubig: Appreciate that. I think that's great. Great info. Um, especially for those folks that are growing their business worldwide. It's a great way to, uh, to keep pushing your core values down. All right, Thad, I'm going to put you off the hot seat. You're no longer in the lightning round.

Thad Tarkington: I love it.

Pete Neubig: If somebody's interested in learning more about this new feature of Second Nature or they're just interested in learning more about Second Nature, where they go to?

Thad Tarkington: Yeah, they can go to secondsature.com and ton of information. They can book some time. I mean, if you want to reach out to me, I'd love to hear from you. It's thad@secondnature.com Is my email. Feel free to reach out directly. And you know I'd love to have a conversation. Make sure you get in touch with the right folks. 

Pete Neubig: That's awesome. And if you're listening to this and you're not a NARPM member, better join. What the heck? Uh, go to NARPM.org Or call them at (800) 782-3452. And if you are in the market for a remote team member, give us a try vpmsolutions.com. We have, I think, almost 40,000 profiles on the platform now. Uh, we have over 40 plus courses, matter of fact, Thad, you and your team, Second Nature, just put a course out there on VPM so that virtual team members can learn, or companies can also learn about Second Nature and how to implement the Second Nature products. So we appreciate y'all's partnership on that.

Thad Tarkington: Absolutely.

Pete Neubig: All right everybody talk to you soon.

Thad Tarkington: Thanks so much Pete. Have a lovely day my friend.

Pete Neubig: Take care.