A Podcast | Robert Rowell

Pete Neubig: Welcome, everybody, to the NARPM Podcast. Thank you for being here today. However you maybe listening iHeartRadio, iTunes, YouTube or through any of the podcast platforms, thank you for being here. So I actually have a really incredible guest. Although he's not part of property management, he's actually part of team building and training. And I have Robert Rowell, sorry. Robert Rowell, like "towel", is the founder of Breaking BarrierZ. It's a talent leadership development company. It delivers engaging, results driven training programs like workplace compliance, communication and generational intelligence. Designed to build confidence, foster collaboration and support modern, multi-generational workforces. Now, formally, he is the president of the Golden State Warriors. So we're amongst royalty here. So Bob is widely recognized for his excellence in leadership and communication, developing a dynamic, leading edge and teamwork driven organization. As you can see how the Golden State Warriors have been fantastic organization over the last ten, 15 years, and Robert was definitely part of that. He was named early in his career as a recipient of the Street and Smith's Sports Business Journal's 40 under 40 award. Rowell has a track record of success and allegiance to leading by example and community engagement. Robert, thank you so much for spending time with us today.

Robert Rowell: Oh my pleasure. I'm glad to be here.

Pete Neubig: All right. So the first thing I have to ask before we get into the whole training thing, which is the most important that people need to learn about, because the number one question I get when people hire remote through VPM is how do I train? How do I train, how do I train? We're going to answer all that. But I got to ask, how does one become president of the most accomplished NBA franchise in our generation?

Robert Rowell: Well, we laid the foundation for them to become the most accomplished franchise. Unfortunately, I didn't get an opportunity to win any of those championships. I was part of the management team for 17 years. Became president the last ten years of my tenure there and left. We drafted Steph Curry and we also kept him as part of our team, which I think is a really important in the conversation about teamwork and team building and organizational and cultural building. But basically, sometimes you've got to be in the right place at the right time, work hard. And that's kind of how I came about my position with the Warriors. I learned from the bottom up.

Pete Neubig: From the bottom up. So you started as... what was your first job with them?

Robert Rowell: My first job there was as assistant controller. So I was brought in by the new ownership at the time, who had just taken over the team in 1995 to learn the finance side of the business. And I had come from the college athletic sphere before there where I was an associate athletic director in college, and I had the opportunity to take the job and really learn the business from the ground up and spent a ton of time just learning it when I got there. And then within about a year, I was running all the finance for the company and then spread into other areas, operations, and then ended up taking over everything in  the early 2000.

Pete Neubig: Only in America. What an amazing story, right? Start from the bottom and work your way up. Hard work. I'm going to go fanboy here real quick.

Robert Rowell: Sure.

Pete Neubig: Did you happen to know Chris Mullin? Were you there when he was?

Robert Rowell: Oh yeah. I hired him, actually, as our general manager. He was my second to last general manager. I had an having to not renew his his contract also. But he's a great guy. He and I have a fine relationship. And, you know, he was an outstanding player. And, you know, the hardest part about sports is that it is a business. And sometimes you have to make business decisions. But yeah, Chris was was a part of our organization as a player and also in the front office.

Pete Neubig: A lot of our younger listeners are like, "Chris, who?"

Robert Rowell: Right. Exactly.

Pete Neubig: If you are my age, with Chris Mullin, and also he's, you know, a northeast kid like me.  so, so sorry for all my people. Not old and in the northeast.

Robert Rowell: Well, they should Google him because he was a great college player and a great professional player.

Pete Neubig: He sure was. 

Robert Rowell: A member of the original Dream Team as well.

Pete Neubig: That's right, that's right. He sure was. Okay, so you're in the NBA, you're president of this organization, you're obviously learning about cohesiveness and team, what made you start creating Breaking BarrierZ? How did that kind of come into your play as you were founding Breaking BarrierZ?

Robert Rowell: Well, it's interesting because when I took over the management of the entire organization, I really had to kind of be introspective in the management team that I wanted to put together. And I looked at our organization, and this may sound very simple, but a lot of teams did not do this at the time, and they actually still don't do it. I looked at the makeup of our team and we had, you know, 15 guys downstairs because that's where our practice facility was because we had a two story building and we had 15 guys downstairs who played for us, and about 13 of them were not white. And I looked at my front office and we were probably at the time 50 plus an age average for the VP's. And everyone didn't look like our players. And I'm like, gosh, you know, we need to have an organization that's representative of where we play in the Bay area, also of our players. I have to have an organization where I want my guys to come upstairs and interact with our entire front office, and I want there to be a relationship, and I want them to feel like, hey, we're here to help you. We're part of your family. But I also have to create an atmosphere that is inviting to them as well to come upstairs. A lot of these kids were in there 18 to 22 years of age. We had some veterans, of course, too. But the young guys, you know, were used to kind of being in a cocoon and being taken care of their entire careers. And I'm like, well, you know, I want this place to be more inviting. So I went out and got a very,  culturally diverse front office that represented our players and represented our entire organization and the cities that we played in throughout the Bay area. And within about a year or so, and I got the best people, I went out into other teams and took the best people from other teams. It wasn't like I was just saying, hey, we got to get this. I want people, you know.

Pete Neubig: You weren't just checking a box.

Robert Rowell: Yeah. No box checking. But I wanted to build a culture where, you know, people were comfortable with everyone. And, you know, within about a year, guys were upstairs in the accounting department, asking questions about how to set up a foundation. You know, they weren't just in the ticket area trying to move their seats, or get concert tickets, but they were actually interacting throughout the entire front office. And I think that's the time when I was like, you know what? We're going to really start to put something really good together here. And we did.

Pete Neubig: You know, you hear this a lot about sports too. It's like, you know, this guy's a cancer on the team or this one bad apple spoils the bunch. And so what you're saying is not only is on a team, everybody has to be cohesive, but the extension of the team in the front office. So let's take that concept because everybody always talks about in business team, team, team. So I want to talk a little more about that. But tell me about your transition at Breaking BarrierZ. You know obviously you had a big aha moment and you saw that there was a need for this type of service for folks. So tell us a little bit about that transition. And then I want to talk about how it really helped business owners and their teams.

Robert Rowell: Yeah. So I got away from the sport. Our team sold. I stayed for one year to transition the new ownership group. But in sports. You know, just like any big business, people who buy a team want to come in and bring their own people in. So I transitioned out and spent a couple of years doing some things professionally. And I thought, you know what? I want to create a business that can help people, and can create a product that can actually train individuals of how to lead, how to manage, how to put together a well-oiled machine that can be trained and onboarded. And so we developed Breaking BarrierZ. I have a bunch of partners. I went out and got industry leaders in all different areas. I have athletes and entertainers. I have professional business, entrepreneurs. We also have people in the industry. We have lawyers, we have HR folks. And I said, okay, let's sit down and let's create a product that can service small and medium sized businesses. Small and medium sized businesses don't have the resources that a lot of large companies have. So let's create something where we can provide protection to a small business owner, because every small business owner needs to understand that if they have a compliance issue or an HR issue, a harassment issue or something, the average settlement is about a six figure settlement that they're going to have to spend. So let's create something that they can have and that it protects them, that trains their employees on employment laws, how the company is protected by employment laws, and how the employer-employee is protected by employment laws. Work on team work, team building, soft skills. You know, one of the things right now in the Gen Z realm is that, there are a lot of young people who are getting jobs, and they're also the first people that are getting fired from jobs as well, because they lack some of the soft skill training that is really necessary. And one of the one of the modules that we have in our training platform is, is workplace intelligence. And that's what we call that WQ. And that's essentially the ability to understand, navigate, optimize workplace dynamics to improve performance, collaboration, employee and customer satisfaction. And we have touched upon some of those soft skill areas like your emotional intelligence, your social skills, how to read a room, your situational awareness, your agility, and your adaptability. You know, you have to be all of those things in order to be successful. So we basically took a platform and we've created all these modules that can help small business owners, small and medium sized business owners, and also, you know, get some bang for the buck on their end too. Because don't you want to have employees who understand each other better? You know, we're in a multigenerational, multicultural work environment these days. And don't you want to know if you're a team leader or a group leader? Don't you want the skills in order to realize how can I push the buttons? And how can I really get to the maximization of my team? And that's what we've done with our platform.

Pete Neubig: Do you have some courses on the platform on how to identify the right people for your organization? Or is it all kind of after we hire somebody to make sure that they thrive in your organization?

Robert Rowell: It's both.  there are a lot of leadership and team building modules that we have. I think it's important to note that our entire platform is also based on the importance of of mental health and wellness in the workplace. So I think to answer your question, we have it all from the standpoint of not just developing people, but, you know, here's here's the things that you need to know. Like, we have conversations. Like navigating difficult conversations, you know, and they're kind of aha moments in a sense because we put panels of business owners and entrepreneurs and people. Like I have the founder of Jamba who's involved on one of our panels and, you know, she was one of the four members of the original Jamba group that obviously blew up into a giant juice monster across the country. But we talk about just basically the type of employee that you want, the type of employee you want to be. Do you want and employee with empathy, how you understand what empathy even means. And we do a lot of talk about microaggressions. We talk about everything that is really critical in today's work environment. and it also, I think one of the unique things about our platform is it is very representative. It's very culturally diverse from the standpoint of like we have we represent everyone on our on our platform.

Pete Neubig: So, if somebody is interested in this platform, where can they go?

Robert Rowell: Well, we've done a partnership with VPM solutions through our we have one module that we've put on your platform, which is on professionalism and communication. And if you actually watch that particular module get get the training credits for that, there's a link on there to go to BreakingBarrierZ.com and you can sign up. And there's a special offer that we've done. We essentially, I know earlier I just said there could be a six figure settlement that you have, we've created a deal with you guys where we've created an absolute amazing discount for your business owners, your small business owners that for the price of really an employee lunch, they can avoid being in that potential $100,000 situation if there's a harassment. Also our training platform has a compliance issue that there are a lot of states and local governments that mandate specific compliance training, such as harassment training or workplace policy, workplace violence policy. We cover all of that in our platform. And our platforms are put together in bite sized modules so your employees don't have to take it all at once. But it's about a 2.5 hour platform.

Pete Neubig: So would you say this is kind of almost like a fractional HR system?

Robert Rowell: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: Because most of the folks listening right now, we're small business, there's not a lot of, we don't have an HR company, and a lot of us don't have an HR, even fractional HR person. Right. So this becomes our training. Right. And basically like a fractional HR company, if I did need more, for example, like let's say  training is going great, but now I need something that's escalated and I need some help with HR. Do you guys have partners with HR companies or do you have a like a course for almost everything? Like, I know you have the one with the difficult conversations, but. Yeah.

Robert Rowell: No, we have a course for almost everything. Actually, in fact, our course is pretty comprehensive.  But we do have the ability to connect you with legal assistance, if you need that. We wouldn't take that on ourselves, but we definitely have partnerships with professionals that we would guide you to. And then it's up to you to use those folks. I think the really interesting thing that you brought up is the whole fractional HR part. There are a lot of PEO organizations out there that companies hire that kind of handle their HR. They also come to us these videos and on our platform.

Pete Neubig: I had one when I owned Empire and it was just terrible.

Robert Rowell: Right, right. So I view our platform and we talk about this a lot internally. And we also market this to folks is we are essentially your virtual employee handbook. We're your virtual and interactive employee handbook because we cover all the topics and the areas. And if you are interested in putting together an employee handbook, we can definitely do that for you as well. However, the most important thing is that you train people. And you cover the areas that are necessary because really, and we've had several of our clients who have said, God, this is really good because I feel as a business owner, as a small business owner, I don't have the resources to have what you said. I don't have three people in HR, I have one person in HR, and that person's me and I do all these other things.

Pete Neubig: I'm also the CEO. the hat of this person and the head property manager. Yeah.

Robert Rowell: Right. Right. And so you get into a situation where like but if you have five, ten, 15, 20, 30 employees, you still need to cover yourself and you need to protect yourself as a business. And if you train your employees like our employment and employee law in the Employment Law section, it covers everything and it gives you a chronological understanding of kind of why these laws were developed and what they're there for. And those are important for everyone to know. And we have respect in the workplace. And essentially it is like giving your manual to someone and saying, hey, take this and make sure that you know, you, you watch all this. The beauty about our platform as a business owner is you can't fast forward through it, and you can't get to the next chapter until you've completed the first chapter. And there's a quiz at the end of every chapter. And the quiz is like very simple questions, but you have to pay attention and understand. And at the very end you get a certificate that you can download and upload. And then we also do all the back of the house reporting, you know, to the business owner as well, that, hey, of your 25 employees,  these two still haven't finished, you know, and we would give you those updates.

Pete Neubig: I love that because I literally did the same thing when I built a VPM Academy. You want to get the certificate? Great. You cannot fast forward and just ask questions. You have to watch it.

Robert Rowell: Yeah. This is a traffic school.

Pete Neubig: So a lot of businesses in property management and real estate hire remote team members. So, like virtual assistants. I think you have a bunch of courses that would actually help people from other countries understand how businesses in the US tend to work.

Robert Rowell: Yes.

Pete Neubig: Okay. So talk about can you talk about a couple of those, what some good courses might be.

Robert Rowell: Yeah. I mean, professionalism in the workplace. I actually it's called redefining professionalism in the workplace. Because what we've done is we've taken the approach from, hey, it's 2025 and these are the issues that are part of the workplace. And it's not just dress codes. We talk about things such as, you know how you look, how you project yourself, how you interact with your superiors, how you prepare for a meeting, what you wear.

Pete Neubig: There's a certain culture in the US, right, like that we all have, right? Like, for example, in the United States, when you come to a meeting, you come on time. That's kind of typical. If you don't come on time, it bends people up like that is not, you know, you start hearing like you don't respect my time, blah, blah, blah. Now, in Central America, it's customary to come late to a meeting, right? So if you hire somebody from Central America and all of a sudden they're ten, 15 minutes late to a meeting, they don't think anything of it. So being able to have some training that just talks about professionalism, like you said, and just how business works, right. How are you supposed to dress?  I'm guessing a lot of these Gen Z-ers don't know that either. Like.

Robert Rowell: Well, and that's one of the things that we've found is in doing research, and putting these modules together is that, you know, calling your coworker bro is not something that is acceptable in America and anywhere, quite frankly, however, some of the Gen Zs have not figured that out. I'm not your bro. I'm your boss. I'm your coworker. I'm your peer.  I'm your colleague. And those are those are things that have rubbed some people the wrong way. And those conversations need to be had. And, you know, navigating those difficult conversations. That's another chat module that we have. We have bystander intervention, you know, which talks about the five Ds, you know, distract, delay, how you deal with, you know with see something, say something.  And where you go to report those things. And I think that also the understanding of the employment laws in America are important for anyone coming over here, you know, to understand their own rights that you know you have. There's  certain benefits that you get when you're working for an American company that you need to understand that you have.

Pete Neubig: More and more people are going remote.

Robert Rowell: Yes.

Pete Neubig: Especially in small business. I know big tech is kind of bringing people back into the office. And, you know, I'm in Texas, right? A lot of these oil companies bringing people back into the office, right. Smaller firms really have embraced this remote. Obviously, they don't have to have a office space, which is a huge commitment. Do you have developing or do you have courses to kind of like, have like, you know what, what's the etiquette for remote? How do you build a community even though your team is remote, like anything like that?

Robert Rowell: We actually have a module on the remote workplace and just how, you know, the business has changed and it's become more hybrid, if not all remote in some areas to your point. And we also talk, interestingly enough, because we bring in the aspects of mental health and wellness into that, because sometimes when you're working remote and you're on your own and you can drive yourself crazy a little bit and we've talked, and we give tips on how to best deal with some of those situations and ways in which to do a better job of interacting with your colleagues and your employees. And also, the appropriate way in which to take a virtual meeting with someone. And you know, what could be seen by someone as a microaggression, which really wasn't an intention on your part, but how to avoid those things? So, yeah. We have a module on that as well.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. One of the big challenges is like that I get asked a lot and I don't have a great answer. And maybe there's a module for me to take. Is like, how do you, you know, I have 14 team members in I think five countries. And none of us are in the same state here in the US. How do you extend your culture and your core values as a company across these remote airwaves, you know, six, eight, 12,000 miles away on some cases. And so that's a big challenge. And if there's some courses on how to kind of bridge that gap, that alone is going to be worth the price of admission, you know.

Robert Rowell: Yeah. And we have those. And one of the unique things that we've done is we don't offer this course, you know, one module like a la carte, that type of stuff. The way we put this together is, we've created the entire package because we know how we built the content that there are several chapters that deal with some of the areas that you mentioned, but if we just gave you one, we wouldn't give you everything that you need from the standpoint of, you know, aha. That's why that's how that works. That's, that's that's how that interacts. It's all put together where it's intertwined with the whole issue of other people's culture. Having the empathy and the respect and the ability to listen and understand that it's important to, I need to maximize Pete. I need to know what's important to Pete. So I don't know what's important to you unless I get to know you. And we talk about the importance of getting to know your teammates. So you might have 14 people in different countries. I know as someone who runs a business, you've spent a lot of time trying to figure out and get to know all the people that you work with so that you know what buttons are the right buttons to push so that you guys all maximize where you're trying to get to.

Pete Neubig: And then and then as you grow, the next level is how do I teach my middle management team on what buttons they need to push, right. Like if I'm the one who knows how to push all the buttons. But eventually, like I'm getting to the point now where there's team members that don't report directly to me and I don't really see them very often except from the company meetings, because what they do. But I need to be able to get their managers to be able to push the buttons as well. So this would be great training for team members, managers, business owners.

Robert Rowell: Yes.

Pete Neubig: You know, one of the things that I want to bring this up earlier and I forgot, but the average age of a owner of a property management firm is around 52 years old, is what I've heard.

Robert Rowell: Oh, wow.

Pete Neubig: And so think about think about the workforce coming in now. Right. I'm hiring people that I could like. I'm 55 now. They I hire a 20 year old. Not only could I be, my kid can be my grandkid now, you know. I mean, so you know, being caught up with these trends, you know, what do you call it?

Robert Rowell: Multigenerational.

Pete Neubig: Multigenerational. It's super important, you know?  I'm going to go back to basketball. Gregg Popovich was, you know, he just retired. He was, you know, older, right? He was like in his 60s. And he was still able to communicate effectively with these 18 to 20 year old kids coming out of school and being on the on the Spurs in this case. Right. And so I think it's you know, as any business owner, not only do you need to be able to relate to your other 50 year olds that work for you, you're going to have to start relating to these younger folks. Because they are the new workforce.

Robert Rowell: Right. And you need to figure out ways. And Gregg Popovich was was one of the greatest communicators and leaders, you know, in sports. And he he walked the talk and he's a genuine human being that what you see is what you get. And there was nothing phony about him. An absolute great leader. And I think the most important thing for leaders is that you mentor up and you mentor down. That you have the ability to have the humility to be able to say, hey, I don't know that, teach me, you know.

Pete Neubig: And you gotta be confident in yourself to do that. Yeah.

Robert Rowell: And, but one of the things that we do in this entire training platform is that's the reason why we call it talent and leadership development is we have those conversations and we have those conversations with not only do we talk about it in our modules, but we have panel conversations with with professionals from all different age groups that are asking questions about, well, where did dress code start from? Who came up with that concept and why? And  a boomer, you know, say, well, here's why we did it. And then you have a young person say, well, I don't understand. Can you explain, you know, why this is important? And that wasn't important. And we have these discussions that teach you how to communicate. And that's so important in the multigenerational workforce, because there is a difference between a 20 year old and a 52 year old, because there's a different way that we came up through business. We run the business by shut up, put your nose down and get the job done. You take that approach this day and age and try to build a culture and an organization. Good luck to you, because this young group of Gen Zs are not going to want to work for you very long, if that's your approach. You know they want. They want an empathetic leader. They want someone with growth mindset. They want someone who understands them. They believe in work life balance. You know, maybe I can tell you, when I first came up through the business work life balance was a zero. I was all work.

Pete Neubig: Oh, that was expected right when we came up.

Robert Rowell: Yeah. And, and I'm not saying that to be like, oh we're just old guys talking, but this.

Pete Neubig: Doesn't mean it was right.

Robert Rowell: No, it didn't mean it was right. I actually applaud these young folks for saying, hey, time out. I need some time for my mental health. I mean, one of the coolest things that we have in our platform is we have an Indian gentleman. And he kind of had an aha moment. And this is in our, this is in  I forget exactly which, chapter it's in. But he said, you know, we were in the van yesterday because we did a session over a couple of days and he said, and, you know, one of the young guys was talking and it just kind of hit me. You know, you're talking about your therapy and your mental health. He goes, where I grew up, like you didn't talk about therapy and you didn't talk about mental health, but you guys are so open and so, you know, so ready to talk about it. He goes, I actually like that. He goes, I'm going. This is this has really helped me understand you better. And it helps me understand, Maybe I need to change some of the things I've been doing, you know, and that's important.

Pete Neubig: Two things, like the Indian culture, they are just grinders, hard working. So that's really hard for them to do that and two, property management. It's a thankless, difficult, stressful job. And when I own my property management firm, I actually would have like, I'd have to have my property manager to take a month off sometimes because they were so burnt out or they were going to leave. I'm like, well, I'd rather live without you for 30 days, then live with that for forever. In the whole concept of the remote team was to help offload some of those tasks for the property manager. But you know, being able to have courses like y'all have where the property managers can watch those and can, you know, understand deal with this stuff.  and then go talk to their boss or have the boss watch it as well. And then the course becomes like the intermediary of the manager owner and the property manager so that they do understand mental health days. They do understand burnout. They do understand, hey, we need to take care of our team, right? Whether that's automation, training, getting more people involved, moving to a different seat, giving them some time off, whatever it is, whatever tools that you want to use. But understanding like this is a this is a really you know, this is a this is a kind of like a epidemic. I wouldn't say a pandemic, but it's an epidemic in, in property management where property managers they their life cycles vary. You know 3 to 5 years and then they want to go do something else. So the courses would definitely help.

Robert Rowell: Yeah. No I think so too. And that's why. So when we created Breaking BarrierZ, our goal was to come up with a solution that was affordable. And really something that we could provide small business owners with a conduit in order to achieve their objectives and protect their own business.

Pete Neubig: So, if you go to vpmsolutions.com and go to VPM Academy, by the way, creating a profile on vpmsolutions.com, it's free. So you go there, create a profile on our platform. So it's not on our website. It's on our platform. We have a free course called Professionalism and Communication that we highly recommend that you take. The video quality of this video is by far exceeds the video quality of all the other videos I created or had partners create. So Robert and his team are 100% professional. From there, you can go get a link to Breaking BarrierZ with basically with a VPM kind of discount code, and you can get a great discount.  but if, Robert, they decide they don't really want to go through VPM, they want to reach out to you guys directly. What's the best way that they can reach out to you guys?

Robert Rowell: The best way to reach out to us is through BreakingBarrierZ with the Z. So it's barriers with the z, BreakingBarrierZ.com. And they can go on to our website and they can leave us a note. They can actually request a demo and contact us. And they could also quite frankly, you know, shoot us over an email as well.

Pete Neubig:  What's that email address?

Robert Rowell: It would be, theo.elias@breakingbarrierz.com.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. If you guys are interested I recommend that you do go through VPM. However, if you don't, you can go to Elias or go to their website.

Robert Rowell: Pete, they're going to want to go through VPM because they're going to get an unbelievable discount. Our normal price is about 195 a person. We've done a deal with you guys, and we're providing this 2.5 hour platform for 45 bucks a person.

Pete Neubig: That's insane. That's a great step. Thank you for that, by the way. I don't know if I thanked you for that when we did this partnership.

Robert Rowell: Well we want to help your industry.

Pete Neubig: All right. So I'm going to put you on the spot. Do you have a funny NBA story? Before we let you go, or are you like, hey, man, I'm not going to talk about any funny NBA stories.

Robert Rowell: A funny NBA story.

Pete Neubig: Or just say, and then just a story.

Robert Rowell: I'm going to give you a good NBA story. Steph Curry did not want to be a Golden State warrior.

Pete Neubig: Really?

Robert Rowell: Yeah. He did not want to be a Golden State warrior and did not want to play for us. And it wasn't until about a year into his involvement with us that he was completely changed. And the reason was that I promised him and his family that our entire organization would commit to developing him on and off the court and developing his persona as well. And his marketing ability and everything else. And obviously, that's taken off through the roof.  but he did not want to be a warrior on draft night. . And look where he is now.

Pete Neubig: Now he's Mr. Warrior. I mean.

Robert Rowell: He's Mr. Warrior.

Pete Neubig: He's earned it.

Robert Rowell: And then he's the greatest shooter in the history of basketball.

Pete Neubig: Other than Chris Mullin. But yes, I'm just kidding.

Robert Rowell: Chris couldn't hit the half court shot, said no. And but Molly was a unbelievable,  basketball player.

Pete Neubig: He certainly was. Well, he's my favorite. He's my guy back then.

Robert Rowell: That's great. Good.

Pete Neubig: Robert, thank you so much for being here.

Robert Rowell: Sure.

Pete Neubig: All right, if you're listening to this and you are not a NARPM member, you can go to NARPM, narpm.org. Or you can give them a call at (800) 782-3452. To access Robert's free course and get access to this deep discount, go to vpmsolutions.com, create a free profile, go to the VPM Academy and you'll see that course there and watch that course. And if you love it like I did, sign up for Breaking BarrierZ. Robert, thank you so much for being here.

Robert Rowell: Great. Happy, happy 4th of July weekend.