A Podcast | Peter Greeves

Pete Neubig: Welcome back, everybody, to the NARPM podcast. As promised, I have Peter Greeves. Co-founder, CEO of Real Estate Services. And, Peter, you've been doing this since you were 19 years old, and you still have a full head of hair, by the way, if you're not, if you guys are not...

Peter Greeves: It's great.

Pete Neubig: I've been doing this for like ten years, and I lost all my hair. So welcome in, man. Appreciate you spending time. I know you're a super busy guy. Appreciate you being here. So, I know you're really big. You're you're a big deal, Peter. We all know that in the HOA world, but a lot of people in NARPM, even though EJF is so big, they may not know who you are. So just give us kind of a short summary of why you got in, how you got in, and then what you're up to.

Peter Greeves: As you mentioned, I started when I was 19 years old. I was working for my uncle's real estate company. I was attending the University of Maryland, and he called up in my dorm and asked if I wanted to answer phones over winter break. I'm like, job. Yes. And I went back that summer. I actually got my real estate license and really gravitated towards his single family rental division. He probably had 50, 70 single family rental accounts, but they were also doing sales and and closings. But I liked the single family rental division because it was quick commissions. It was younger people renting within the District of Columbia, and did great with it. The next summer I came back and stayed, worked full time while I went to school full time and just grinding it out, built it up to a couple of hundred doors and got a call from an HOA saying you consider managing our condo. I didn't even know what that meant. I'm like, sure. Yes. I didn't say no to anything at the time. And think about this when we talk later on. I just jumped in and reverse engineered with the last guy was doing and through just hustle. Figured it out. Got a second one, got a third one. And now, we're in the greater district, we have about 650 associations. We still have single family rental division. We have a little over 900, 925 doors. So we run them as two separate companies, EJF Rentals and EJF Real Estate Services. Two different leadership teams, two sets of software. We run them separately, but they're all under the EJF umbrella. Same vision, same culture.

Pete Neubig: What was the main reason to do that? Because it's two sets of books and it's kind of a pain, but is there is a liability reason?

Peter Greeves: No, it was hard to think both as an HOA manager and a rental manager. Really what you do and who you answer to with as a rental manager, you have an owner and you know what your clear directive from them is, is to make money, right? They want you to maintain the property value. They earn money with that. But they're really looking at what essentially is a single business unit. They're a single business unit with a profit and loss statement, and it drops to the bottom line. Your relationship with your tenant is different than your relationship with your owners at the, communities that you manage. But with the community association, it's the board of directors, and they have a different set of objectives. Objectives, excuse me. They want to maintain property value. It's about compliance. It's about, other things. Things other than the bottom line of the community. They want to keep peace as low as possible. And so you think differently as an HOA manager and a rental manager. And so part of the key to success of doing each is to not overlap your staff, your property managers. And we we did this. I was managing both rentals and HOA managers, HOAs. And as we grew, I found that increasingly difficult to do so, we separated. I tried to create portfolios for community association managers and portfolios for rental managers. And that just grew to the point where it just made sense to separate it into two companies. I could run it under one company. It all flows up to the same thing. But I wanted to be very intentional and deliberate about having the rental team be used best in class technology. Think correctly about what their objective is and the community association team do the same thing.

Pete Neubig: So you were literally building two companies at one time?

Peter Greeves: Correct. Plus maintenance.

Pete Neubig: Three companies at one time, right? And I'm guessing the maintenance was under another umbrella as well.

Peter Greeves: EJF maintenance services. Yes.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. Makes complete sense. There's so much to unpack there. But I want to jump into that. Um, our listeners, when they're listening to this, they're most likely single family property managers. I know right now, single family management is either kind of maintaining or they're decreasing. Right? They're losing clients. There's a bigger churn than before. And so a lot of folks are thinking, well, maybe I need to expand my services. And they seem HOA, it's close enough. And some may go to HOA. Now, the grass is always greener, right. Everybody looks at HOA like, oh man, you know that looks like it's so simple. So let's talk a little bit about HOA. So as you're building these companies you obviously saw lots of differences. And you created two different companies and I'm guessing different marketing and sales and operations and tech and all that good stuff. Talk about the major obstacles. If I'm the SFR property manager going into HOA or just the main differences, like what do I need to look out for if I really want to do this?

Peter Greeves: So there are more similarities than differences. You're a property manager. You're managing a physical asset. You have residents living in it. You have to have a service mentality, and you have to want to do right by the people within your communities in both instances. Right. So I'd say 80% of it's the same, but there are some very distinct differences between the two. One is the posture you take with communication with your, for example, tenants is much different than what you take with the residents within your buildings who someday may get elected to the board and be your boss. Your boss is the five or so board members on the community association side, and the manner in which you communicate with five people, you have five decision makers, you have decisions by committee. The pace is a lot slower. There's a lot of differences, so the grass isn't greener on either side of the fence. I get as much. I go to a NARPM conference and I say to people that I manage mostly HOAs, and they look at me like I'm crazy. Like, why would you want to do that? I go to the CAI conference and I say, we have a pretty large portfolio of single family rentals, and they look at me like, why would you ever want to do that? And so I don't know that it's grass is greener or the opposite is true. Everybody, they've got it better on their side of the fence.

Pete Neubig: So I got a lot of questions. I don't know much about HOAs. I'll be quite honest here. So you're saying that when you take over an HOA that, it's a board, basically contracts with you to run the HOA. Is that the way it works?

Peter Greeves: That's exactly correct. So the board of directors, it's a little mini government. It's a little Municipality where the residents elect a board of directors to represent them and make decisions on their behalf. And they set fees, they set rules, but they can hire a management company to help them execute their responsibilities. It's an all volunteer board of the residents that live within the community. So they hire a company like us to collect the fees and to pay their bills and do financial reporting and long term financial projections and so forth.

Pete Neubig: So I see one huge obstacle right away, right? You're dealing with volunteers and you're dealing with multiple people that are your bosses. So when I have a house that I manage, typically there's one owner, right. When you have an HOA, you have five bosses. Or it could be it could be more, it could be less. Right. But you have basically the board. Is it typically one person you deal with or like you can get call from John, and then Jeff calls you up and tells you to do the opposite thing of what John wants you to do. Because I can imagine people have these little fiefdoms within their board as well.

Peter Greeves: So we try to develop a relationship with the board liaison that speaks for everybody on the board, but they do not have decision making power on bigger issues. It has to be put to a vote. A service contract. You're signing up for a pretty major landscaping contract. One individual can't unilaterally make that decision. They can be the channel of communication to facilitate. So I don't have to have five separate conversations with five separate board members. But it does go to committee. The good and the bad of that is, things go much slower. They take a lot longer to make decisions. In a single family rental, I pick up the phone, I call the owner, I said, we've got a problem. The owner makes the call, or I want to lower the rent because it's not renting. The owner makes the call. I have to bring it to a board. I have to explain to him why we're making this suggestion. We have to guide them through the process. And it's a process of educating the board. They want to make the right decision. They might not be equipped to make the right decision because they don't have the information. It's my job to provide them with that information necessary for them to to contemplate it and make the right decision. So as a result of management by committee, they make decisions to change management companies much slower. So the cycle of getting hired is much longer. I think we track it. It's in the 150 upper hundreds from the first contact to when we actually have a go live date. The good news is churn is a whole lot less on the association management side. Once you get them, as long as you're doing a good job, it's not a lot of churn. A churn in the industry on average, is in the high single digits, where it's much higher on the single family rental side. Because even if you're doing a good job, owners want to sell, they want to self-manage because you're doing such a good job, it looks so easy. They think, but why should I pay you to do this if it's this easy? They don't know the heartache you're suffering behind the scenes.

Pete Neubig: Or taxes and insurance went up and they squeezed out the profit and they got to get it somewhere. So, they take out the middleman, they try to do it themselves.

Peter Greeves: Correct.

Pete Neubig: Yep. So, like when I manage properties, single family, I kind of know the math. I know it's like, okay, I could do 1 to 50 as a portfolio manager, and then from 50 to 100, I'd probably have to hire an assistant and so forth. Is it the same kind of mathematics?

Peter Greeves: It's the same concept. The business model is a little bit different. Community associations is typically priced on a per door basis. It could be, if you had big sprawling communities in Texas where you're from, you could have 1500 homes in the community, and it wouldn't be uncommon to be $5 a door on the low end. Um, in an urban environment like DC, where we have smaller door count, uh, I could be in 50, $60 a door, which is not uncommon, but it's priced and thought of on a per door basis, not a percentage of revenue or something or something. Then, same with the single family rental space, there's ancillary revenue. And for somebody getting into community association, that might be the hardest thing to understand is the base management fee is not all inclusive. It used to be when I first came into this market, I was very proud going to a board and saying, I'm not going to have any hidden fees. The only thing you're going to get is postage and copying reimbursement. The problem with that is it becomes an all you can eat buffet. The more of your time they're spending, the lower their price is. And so we've had an unbundling of fees on both in the single family rental and the HOA space where not every community needs the same set of services. So instead of saying, yes, we do this and no, we don't do this, we have a price so we can say yes for everybody.

Pete Neubig: So and the price is yeah, the prices. You don't want to say no.

Peter Greeves: We have a fairly lengthy list of ancillary fee pricing. If you're trying to get into this space, unless you have a friend that will share theirs, or you get a copy of the last guy's contract, it's not intuitive what how to price the the ancillary fees. You'll figure it out. And there's a lot of people in the industry that are very friendly and very open with their information. I'm one of them. And I would share concepts, not necessarily exact pricing and be happy to. Yeah.

Pete Neubig: Okay. So it's like, I know what a single family management company, I know all the duties that I have to do. What are the duties like, I gotta collect, I'm guessing I got to collect the HOA fees. Right. And I sound such a, I know I sound like such a newbie here. Like,  I got investors look to me like all you do is collect rent. All you do is collect HOA fees. Like, what else is on the other side? What is the stuff that I'm missing that's like.

Peter Greeves: Well, in this, in the same way it's ah, AP financial reporting. Right. Exactly the same lot bigger scale and a little bit more complexity. Not every HOA is on cash basis. You could be a modified accrual basis. You could be a full accrual that adds some complexity. You could have mixed use properties that have commercial and residential with separate budgets there. These add layers of complexity. They're not as hard as they sound to do. If you're new into the game, don't don't go for these kind of communities. These would be very hard. Stick with the cash basis, smaller community. But what you're really in charge of are the common areas. So the public spaces, uh, if it's an HOA community, you're you're thinking about landscaping in certain parts of the country, uh, snow removal, trash removal, street lights. If they have a community center, the pool, if they have front gates, the gate cards. And so it's a fairly defined set of what you're responsible for, as opposed to, I have a single family house in the middle of Texas. I have a roof, I have a basement, I have a heat and air conditioning system. You're really soup to nuts. Everything within the physical structure. If the refrigerator breaks and one of my communities, HOA communities, it's not what I'm. It's not me...

Pete Neubig: Responsible for that. Yeah, right.

Peter Greeves: So, you have to know the scope of what you're doing. Then there's really three things that you do. First, it's the financial, the ARAP. It's the physical, and then it's the administrative. You have to keep things in compliance. In an HOA community, there's a compliance inspections. You don't want somebody painting their garage door blue when the rest of the community has a different color.

Pete Neubig: The big one for us here is grass, right? The grass goes more than like a quarter of an inch. And oh my goodness, we're getting letters left and right.

Peter Greeves: From that perspective, a lot of the listeners will manage rentals within HOA and have a pretty good idea of what compliance consists of.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So, I love single family homes because I don't have to be there except for when I have to be there. Right? I have to I have to do an inspection or whatever. Like, um, with these gate cards and things of that nature, do you actually have to have somebody on site for these communities? Or everything is just through the mail? Like, hey, I need a new...

Peter Greeves: It depends on the size of the community. So, the very large communities do have people on site, but it's completely unnecessary for communities of the smaller scale. And you do it remotely in the same way we visit our communities just to put eyeballs on it, to meet with vendors and so forth. But for the most part, you rely on the various service contractors to go out and perform their responsibility. The landscaping contract, you're going to get to go out in a high rise building. Somebody is going to be responsible for the elevator. That's going to be the elevator service contract. So I don't have to physically be there every time the service contractor shows up. They'll have access. They'll know what to do. And that's another distinct difference is in the single family, it's very reactive. I have a drippy faucet. My toilet's not working. My refrigerator is not working. In the HOA space, we are dealing with things that pop up, but we're trying to anticipate problems. We're thinking about reserve studies. What does the future look like? We're putting service contracts in place for the major components, and in some ways that makes it easier. Because if I have a, for example, elevator contract in place, I don't have to worry about the fire drill that happens. If an elevator breaks, I'm servicing it correctly. I'm spending the money I need to spend to get it serviced correctly and keep it running for the for the residents. As opposed to waiting for something to break and it becomes a drop everything emergency because the tenant doesn't have a refrigerator right now.

Pete Neubig: I got a stupid question. Who actually goes out and drives around to see to make sure that garage door is not blue or that the grass is?

Peter Greeves: So for smaller companies, it is the assigned portfolio manager. For larger companies, they have a compliance team that would go out and all they do is compliance. You could also third party contract. There are vendors out there that will look at your set of governing documents, your CC&R, and for a fee, you could hire them to go out and drive the community and generate the violation letters and do the follow up.

Pete Neubig: I'm laughing because there always seems to be some little old lady, man, they, them, whatever, that's retired. And then they're the ones driving around, and then they're letting people know, hey, there's a blue door here not supposed to be there. And I'm like.

Peter Greeves: So I have some friends that brand their cars and they want to wave the flag. And I have other friends that will never brand the cars because they don't want the harassment from, you know, somebody, don't you send me a letter.

Pete Neubig: So, you said obviously accounting is a big deal on both SFR and HOA. Are there like specific softwares for the HOA industry? Like much like we have like Rentvine and Propertyware and things of that nature.

Peter Greeves: Yeah. So we operate off of two separate softwares specifically where with AppFolio on the rental side and Vantaca on the HOA side. AppFolio was and maybe is best in class. When we went with AppFolio, right when APTLY was brand new, it was a game changer for the single family rental space. Now there's a large number of competitors that are very good, very good. There's a very few really good ones in the HOA space. Vantaca in my opinion, is the best in class. And in the beginning, using your current single family rental software to manage your HOAs is probably fine until you get up to 30, 40, 50 associations, then you're going to start seeing the limitations. And here's why. Single Family Rentals really has one owner, one rent check, maybe one bill. You pay yourself. The lift from an accounting perspective, isn't that heavy? If you have 50 or 75 owners sending in your money and you need to do it in cash or modified accrual, accrual. You have some complexity to it. And so really of Vantaca or any of the software on the HOA space is really duplicating QuickBooks, right? It really has to be fairly robust financial report, intake and reporting. And also when you're with the best in class on both sides of the industry, you will get a whole lot of efficiency through the partners that have integrations, the banks and so forth. And so if you're stuck using, um, a product that's focused on the single family rental space and you found a way to make it work on the association space, you're going to be limited with what partners on that service the associations integrate into it. I spoke about the inspections, but there's mailers. There's a whole lot of outsourcing you can do to third parties, resale packages and so forth that integrate with the software.

Pete Neubig: Are there specific certifications that you need to manage HOAs? What do you need? Like in Texas, and this could be state to state, but in Texas, you have to be a licensed agent and working with a broker to manage properties. Is that the same for HOA?

Peter Greeves: Every state is different. Some states, and I think it's eight of them now, have very specific licensing requirements specific to managing community associations. Others, like the District of Columbia, require you to be working under a real estate broker, what you just described. And so the license that you currently hold. Would allow you to manage HOAs in your state. Now, Community Association Institute is both the largest trade association. It's the equivalent of NARPM for the single family rental space. And they have designations. I would encourage anybody thinking about getting into the space to go take their M100 class. It's a wealth of information. We send all our virtual assistants through it. We send all our people through it. They come out with just a lot of knowledge on the industry, and it's a good place to start. And then after you take the class, you're able to test in and get your CMCA, certified manager of community associations. And then you can go up the scale, take more classes and get up to a p cam. And so you.

Pete Neubig: You don't need those certifications.

Peter Greeves: You don't need them. You don't need them unless you're you're in one of the states that requires a license.

Pete Neubig: When we were in the green room, you were talking about the differences between a conference and a CAI conference. Did I get that right?

Peter Greeves: Community Association. Institute.

Pete Neubig: So tell me a little bit about, like what? You know, you hadn't been to a conference in a while and, uh, you know, uh, what did you see? And I'm guessing you go to CAI conferences quite often?

Peter Greeves: I do, yes.

Pete Neubig: So what was the big differences that you saw between a NARPM and a CAI conference?

Peter Greeves: So I went to my first conference. I went to the the conference out in Colorado. Uh, it was great. The in it's a lot more tech forward there. So here's why I went. I've been to the Chi conference. I know all the vendors there. My friends I've, uh, you know, given the talks, I'm not learning as much as I used to from those conferences, and I was craving new information and trying to see it. So I went to the NARPM, not only because of our single family rental portfolio. I was trying to learn something new, for our association portfolio. And I found it fascinating, both the conversations that we're having. The presenters were great. But the trade show and the vendors that I didn't know. And what do you do? And wow, that's great. And I saw a lot of them that were very applicable on the HOA side, security companies that were embedding AI into the cameras, I thought were great. Very eye forward. I've had a lot of follow up conversations with a number of the vendors exploring how we might be able to introduce him into the HOA space. Excitement on their part. Excitement on my part. Trying to get into something new that that isn't available typically to the association management industry.

Pete Neubig: Yeah, I thought that was a really cool take, because we always hear that single family is kind of a laggard in in technology. But I gotta say, over the last, especially since 2020, the technology has really ramped up on the single family space. Um, you know, because, you know, we always see the SFR space is kind of like the North Star and that's kind of the tech, and it kind of filters down. But, uh, SFR has really, the single family management. They were early adopters on virtual assistants, and now it looks like we may be early adopters on AI instead of laggards on this stuff.

Peter Greeves: I agree. I started using virtual assistants assistance after attending a NARPM conference. I was walking around, I saw a booth for virtual assistant. I'm like, what is this? You hire somebody from the Philippines? And I thought about it and like, sure, let's give it a go. It sounds sounds really interesting. We were five years because of NARPM, because of that. I was about five years ahead of the norm in the HOA space. Now it's pretty prevalent in the space, but there was about a five year lag. And I see that with some of the adoption of technology as well. But you're absolutely right. The technology on the HOA space is moving fast. They're getting up to speed. They're really good products out there, including two in particular, HOA AI providers that are really digging in deep and bringing some real efficiencies to the processes.

Pete Neubig: All right. So we're going to hit a commercial break here in a second. Got one last question, though. As a single family operator, I know my target market is basically single family investors that are buying properties in the area that I manage. Yeah. Who's your target for HOA? Like, how do you find those people?

Peter Greeves: You can't be all things to all people. So for us, we began as an urban company where our office is downtown D.C., and that was our target market. And it was through our relationships with the vendors, particularly the attorneys, that when a board is unsatisfied with their current management company, they often call their attorney and say, how do we get out of this contract? Right. Okay. And who should I call? So a big source of our referral business is from the attorneys, the accountants and all vendors that we deal with. It wasn't until just a few years ago that we became very intentional about business development and stood up a business development team. So you can do it very effectively without a business development team. You don't have as many pitches. If you're if you're doing one a month and you're building up, you're pretty happy right now. We do we do several a week. But your target audience are, should be in the beginning, the smaller communities until you get your feet under you and just emerge into the marketplace and let people know you're interested and the phone will ring.

Pete Neubig: What about builders? Like, if they're building a new community, do you want to try to get in with the builders?

Peter Greeves: Yes. That's a great source of new business. If you can get in with a builder, they can feed you a lot of business and if you do a good job by them. They will feed you.

Pete Neubig: I'm assuming most communities already have an HOA management company, so you're literally trying to find the ones that aren't providing and like literally replacing them. So that's why it's a longer sales process, I would guess huh?

Peter Greeves: That's exactly right. They, you know, if 10% churn a year, a little bit less than that. There are companies, there are associations out there looking, and sometimes they've been through 3 or 4 management companies. Maybe you don't want those, right. Because they're hopping from their your their expectations are unrealistic. Yeah. You're starting a new business. Maybe that's a good way to get get your foot into the industry.

Pete Neubig: Same here right when so when we have when we when we find somebody like, oh, who's your last major company? I was with so-and-so. And before that I was with so-and-so, before I was with so-and-so. And they're all terrible. I'm like, ah, you might have to look in the mirror, right? The four major companies can't be terrible in 3 or 4 years, right?

Peter Greeves: You can hire an HOA manager too. A lot of people in the single family rental industry, have HOA experience and tap into that experience and see who they manage, how they manage, if they're interested in doing it. Again, it's a good way to get your foot in the door to.

Pete Neubig: What is, like for a single family, you know, a good profit margin is, 20 to 30% is probably pretty healthy. Are you finding that your SFR or your HOA company has a higher profit margin now? Which one makes more money, but just a higher margin overall?

Peter Greeves: They're about the same for us. And they're both in above industry average on both sides. But in general, single family rental has a higher profit margin than the HOA space. However, the money you bring in from HOA is bigger. So you get a smaller piece of a bigger pie. As long as you get to a little bit of scale, your top line number is going to be bigger on the HOA space.

Pete Neubig: Man, I can talk to you all day, but we do have...we're up against it. So I'm going to hit a quick commercial break and then I'm going to put you in the lightning round. Peter, we'll be right back.

Peter Greeves: Sounds good.

Pete Neubig: All right. Peter Greaves, CEO, co-founder, EJF Real Estate Services, are you ready for the lightning round?

Peter Greeves: I am ready.

Pete Neubig: All right. So, we'll start you off with an easy one. What PM software do you use?

Peter Greeves: Uh Vantaca. I mentioned that, yes.

Pete Neubig: AppFolio and, uh.

Peter Greeves: AppFolio on the single family rental side. Vantaca on the HOA.

Pete Neubig: Okay. All right. So on the single family side, what is your organizational structure? Is it departmental, portfolio based? Pods? What kind of structure are you guys using for 900 plus single family units?

Peter Greeves: It's departmental.

Pete Neubig: Departmental. Okay. Alright. Do you have BDMs for both companies now?

Peter Greeves: We have BDMs on both companies.

Pete Neubig: Okay. What is one piece of advice you'd give someone just starting out in the HOA business?

Peter Greeves: Have patience.

Pete Neubig: Was it taking that course?

Peter Greeves: It's taking the course. Yes. Take the course. Learn. You'll get. If you desire to come in, you'll get it. But join CAI, that would be a good piece of advice.

Pete Neubig: Alright. And if you're just starting the PM business, join NARPM.

Peter Greeves: Join NARPM.

Pete Neubig: Great advice. Does pineapple belong on pizza?

Peter Greeves: Uh, whatever floats your boat. I don't order it, but if somebody else does, I eat it, and I like it.

Pete Neubig: Favorite fast food restaurant?

Peter Greeves: Is Chipotle a fast food restaurant?

Pete Neubig: It is today. Alright. Uh, what was your first job?

Peter Greeves: Flipping burgers at Roy Rogers. I hated it. It's the only job I've ever had that I didn't like.

Pete Neubig: Really?

Peter Greeves: No.

Pete Neubig: What's your ideal vacation?

Peter Greeves: Um, taking my family to Europe or anywhere we haven't been before.

Pete Neubig: Oh. You like new stuff? Okay.

Peter Greeves: I like new stuff.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. I don't know when this is going to drop, but I'm going to be taking my mom, my father-in-law, to go see the tour de France.

Peter Greeves: Oh, really?

Pete Neubig: Final stage in the Champs in Paris. So we're real excited about that. So I'm going to be taking your ideal vacation because I've never been there. Yeah. If you could have dinner with anyone alive, who would you want to have dinner with?

Peter Greeves: Controversial in today's market. I mean, in today's environment, but probably Elon Musk.

Pete Neubig: I agree, I agree on both. It's a controversial, but man, that guy is just. I don't know if I'd want to have dinner with him. I just don't know if I could even, like, speak his language like he is just.

Peter Greeves: I read his book late recently, and I'd recommend it to anybody, no matter what your politics are. It's a fascinating story and how he goes about running his business. There's lots of lessons there for us running our own.

Pete Neubig: What is one challenge you're currently facing in your business?

Peter Greeves: Same challenge everybody's facing, finding good people.

Pete Neubig: Finding good people.

Peter Greeves: Where we're growing fast, and we always have needs. And we want only A-players. And finding those a players, identifying them, getting them on your team is just hard.

Pete Neubig: And then keeping them.

Peter Greeves: And keeping them.

Pete Neubig: Keeping them is even harder. Yeah. All right. You're off the... Oh no. Last question. Dogs or cats?

Peter Greeves: Dogs for sure.

Pete Neubig: Dog guy. All right. You're off the hot seat. You're off the lightning round. Peter, if somebody's like, hey, man, I just need to pick your brain or I want to reach out to you. What's the best way to contact you?

Peter Greeves: Get in contact, go to my website. You can reach me through the receptionist. We screen out all the people trying to sell me something, but I'm very generous with my information and my time. Be happy to chat. You can reach out to me on LinkedIn as well and connect. Connect with me that way.

Pete Neubig: Excellent. And if you are not a member of NARPM, you can go to narpm.org, or you can give them a call at (800) 782-3452. And if you need some help finding A-players that are remote, give us a try. VPMsolutions.com you can also email me pete@vpmsolutions.com. Peter, thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate you.

Peter Greeves: Thanks. It was fun.