How to Hire a Top Performing BDM | Jennifer Merritt

A Podcast | Jennifer Merritt

Pete Neubig: Welcome to the NARPM Podcast. I'm your host, Pete Neubig, the voice of NARPM, and I have Jen Merritt, COO of RentScale, with me today. Jen, thanks for being here today.

Jennifer Merritt: Pete, thanks for having me.

Pete Neubig: All right, so Jen spends her days helping property management owners, company owners, stop guessing and start growing. She's worked with hundreds of PM entrepreneurs and trained over 200 BDMs on how to sell without feeling gross, awkward, or scripted. I love that, because we don't want to be used car salesmen. So this is Jen's world, her and Jeremy Pound, they run RentScale, they do an incredible job. I'm very fortunate to have Jen on here to talk about growth, but more importantly, Jen, what I want to talk about today is the BDM role. So we hear this talk, BDM, it's just a fancy three-digit acronym for salesperson, right? Is that right? Okay.

Jennifer Merritt: It is, and we hate it, actually, to be honest with you, but that's what we've all termed it. So here we live in the BDM space.

Pete Neubig: I'd say we're all just BDMs, we're all just squirrels trying to get a nut in the BDM world. So now a lot of people will ask about BDMs, but before we even hire a BDM, which I want to kind of dive in and kind of really splice that up, let's talk about when do you know you're ready for a BDM? Do you have clients that come in to you and then like, hey, I need a BDM, and you say, not you, we just did this. We don't believe that you need a BDM at this time.

Jennifer Merritt: Yes. Actually, Pete, that happens all of the time, all of the time, believe it or not. And there is a certain threshold that we find to be really, really important. So you are not ready for a BDM if you don't want to grow your company. So we've even had people come to us and they're like, hey, I think I want a business development manager. And I think it was just a trend and what everybody's doing, like it's the next step in my business. Well, we put one in and that person closed a bunch of doors. And then those folks were like, wait, this is too much growth for me. So step number one is you need to want to grow your property management company. And you just need to have the desire to get a little bit bigger. Not that you have to be a lot bigger. So that's step number one. I'd say step number two is there's two elements or stairs in which we kind of vet you to see which path is better for your business. Because let's be real, Pete, not everybody needs a business development manager. I think that you come to RentScale and you expect that the answer is going to be yes, but it's not. We actually look at your annual door value, how much you're bringing in per client in each client that you bring on. We look at what you're going to pay this BDM. We look at your average door closings, like your RPU. So there's a lot of different factors in there. And what I would say is your very first step is number one, I want to grow. Number two is what does your business look like? How many leads do you have coming in? Can your business support a full-time employee? Because that's really important. And there are tons of options for part-time employees. Or even we help with fractional business development managers. I hate that word, but we will close doors for you.

Pete Neubig: Part-time, it's like pre-owned versus used. Yeah.

Jennifer Merritt: Yeah. I mean, it's about the execution, right? But yeah, so that's one step.

And then once we feel like your business really supports a business development manager, and we feel that you need to go boots on the ground in order to gain more traction in your marketplace, I would say that's where we step into a full-time business development manager, planted and trained by RentScale to make sure that that person has all of the tools and skills that they need to go out there and crush it for you.

Pete Neubig: What about operationally? If I'm running kind of an operational mess, do you find people like, hey man, are you able to see that when you consult people? Like, hey, your operations is kind of messy. You need to clean a few things up before you hire somebody, because if your operation is a mess and you bring in more doors, you're just going to have a lot of churn, I would think.

Jennifer Merritt: For sure. There's going to be a lot of churn in that. I would say unpopular opinion because we operate in a world where we're all operations people or operationally minded. I am a salesperson at heart, and I believe that growth is going to fix things. I know that if you infuse a ton of growth and you don't have any systems set up, that's a mess. So yes. But what I think you really need to have set up more than how am I going to lease a house? How am I going to screen a house or screen a tenant? I think you really need to have set up your sales system. So what I don't recommend that you do is hire a business development manager into a company because you think it's going to solve all your problems and just tell somebody to go. Like, I don't know, go figure it out. So you need a playbook and you need a CRM and you need to define who your ideal client is. And oh, by the way, Pete, who your ideal client isn't. And we just need to get really clear about some of that stuff. We need to have a forecast in place and know what this person should be signing and what good for this individual looks like. So there's a lot of stuff I think you have to have in place, but I would argue that our property managers out there are scrappy individuals, right? And so I don't necessarily believe that you have to have everything else figured out in your business. I believe that you'll sign doors on and you might fumble through some of them, but more importantly, and what I think we as a whole tend to forget to put first is your business can't operate without people to operate for. So for me, and again, I'm biased because I'm a salesperson, but growth in is more important than figuring out your ops.

Pete Neubig: I would say, again, a lot of us are operators and we might get to the point where everything has to be perfect before we hire a BDM. And so I think if you're a handoff and your onboarding is messy, I think at the very minimal, you fix that. You can worry about the leasing and all that other stuff, but that stuff will get fixed on kind of as the plane is flying, so to speak. But I think if you at least get the onboarding piece done, that will help you out. So there's a lot of factors here. You threw a lot out there, Jen, already. We're like five minutes in and you already threw a bunch of stuff out there. So one is like, got to look at the revenue and you guys can help to help us determine, all right, based on your RPU and your revenue and this and that, you can either hire a full-time, part-time, or maybe there's somebody inside your organization. You got to get your marketing, right? Like if you don't have any leads, is that an indicator? I wrote down marketing. I heard you say it, but I didn't hear you kind of dive into like, do your marketing system need to be set up or can the BDM help bring deals in through different methods?

Jennifer Merritt: Well, so there's no short answer to this. What I would say is if you expect that you're going to, a BDM is going to bring in 10 doors from day one and you're hinging your entire company on that. Yeah. You better have some leads and some opportunities for them. However, we work with a lot of property management companies who don't have any leads. In fact, they're starting out at day zero, day negative one. And they're like, I know I need growth in my business and I'll figure out how to operate it. Like we'll set the systems up as we build growth, but growth takes time. And so what I would say to you is there's a lot of different avenues to do this. And I think that as you're trying to infuse this and figure out which path you go and how many leads you actually need, what you need to sit down is you got to figure out what your forecast is. You have to sit down and say, okay, how many doors am I expecting? How many leads am I expecting? And at the industry benchmark conversion rate, am I going to convert enough of my leads into doors that I'm going to see the growth I want? Here's the thing. Zero leads coming in means you've got to put a BDM boots on the ground. Who's going to go to your investor events. Who's going to host events for you. Who's going to network with realtors. Who's going to make furbo calls. Who's going to get a list based on SIC codes and start picking up the phone. You know, I don't believe that if you have zero leads, you can expect them to convert anything. Now that being said, let's say you only have 10 leads coming in a month. That's better than no leads. And you at least have something started. So at that point, you might want to hire somebody in part-time. So like rent scales, closer package, where we close leads for you. That's something that you might want to look into. If you have a couple leads a month and you're like, yeah, you know what I could stand to infuse three to five doors a month. I'm going to grow my company. I'm going to build my operations out. I'm going to scale a little bit slower, but I'm going to scale right. That's perfect. So I think there's a lot of different avenues that you can go.

Pete Neubig: So many different factors. I love business, right? Because it's not just one cookie cutter. So if you're not sure if you need a BDM or you can afford one, like call Jen and Jeremy over at RentScale and they will kind of help you out with that. So now let's say I'm ready. I want to hire, I got a few leads coming in. I got 10 to 15, 20 leads coming in. My operations is pretty good. I'm making money. I know I can afford somebody and I want to grow and my team is ready for growth. So I think I put most of the bullet points there. All right. So now I want to hire a BDM. Where do I find them?

Jennifer Merritt: Good question, Pete. Well, okay. So there's a lot of different methods that we use to find them. In fact, we tell you specifically to use two. So first is we are actually getting a ton of great candidates from LinkedIn. Believe it or not, we get a lot of good people from LinkedIn and they usually have the type of mentality to develop into a top performer. Don't ask me what the correlation is. I couldn't tell you, but LinkedIn is definitely something we recommend. Then we like your choice of either zip recruiter and indeed, but we have a very unique hiring process because you got to weed out the bad ones on those platforms, but that's really where I go to find a BDM. Also, some of the most successful people that have come across as a BDM are employees that actually are misaligned with what they were meant to do in life. So I've had a lot of property managers who actually have the sales bone in their body. We're training one right now for Robert Deloso and she's incredible. And so they come with this really cool subject matter expertise. As long as they have some of the sales attributes that we look for, that's also a great path. And then the best one of all, put it out to your network. Word of mouth is super powerful. And when you hire employees that you know, or that somebody else knew, and it came to you through a personal funnel, those people generally stay longer. So I always like to put that out there too.

Pete Neubig: Okay. Now, so before I put the word out, I really need to understand a few things I would think, right? I need to have a job description. I think I need to know what's expected. I think I need to know maybe what I'm going to pay and how I'm going to pay them. So let's talk a little bit about, you said a lot of boots on the ground is what you call it. And I guess that's kind of like people that actually have to go out and do things. Is there a not boots on the ground where I just sit back and I just get leads? Is that even something that's possible in the industry?

Jennifer Merritt: Well, that's one of the products that we are launching actually at the end of this month.

Pete Neubig: Pete, you're the first. I did not know that, people.

Jennifer Merritt: You did not know this. You did the first person I'm telling about this, like exclusive. We have not announced this. This is Jeremy and I so far that know this. So yeah, we are announcing- Now my tens of listeners, Jen.

Pete Neubig: Tens of listeners.

Jennifer Merritt: And your tens of listeners now know, yes. But yeah, if you have at least some leads coming in every single week, we are putting an offering out there that you can pay us a per door commission. So there's no monthly charge or set up fee, but we are going to have a trained pool.

Pete Neubig: You're going to have a team that actually will do it. Yep.

Jennifer Merritt: Yep. I have a trained pool of business development managers who are going to take the leads remotely. And this product is specifically designed for PM companies that are not ready for boots on the ground, but want to get their growth going and have a few leads coming in. I'll tell you, we're not going to go out there and make for rent by owner calls. We're going to field the inbound, hit speed to lead really hard and convert what you have.

Pete Neubig: How many leads do you think, like if I'm a company, how many leads do you think you would need to have just this, not your service, but like, I want to hire a full-time BDM because I'm bringing in X amount of leads. Do you think there's a kind of a lead count for that?

Jennifer Merritt: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: Most people do a hybrid. They're doing both. They're bringing in the leads and they're going out in their boots on the ground.

Jennifer Merritt: Yeah. So Pete, they're doing a hybrid, but what I say is like, if you're having, if you're sitting down and have a consult with RentScale, we're going to sit there and we're going to look at that. And what I would say is it depends on how many doors you want to close, right? It's always going to come back to that. But what I like to see is this is my ideal scenario. If you have say five leads a week coming in, I'm a pretty happy camper. Like I can build some great stuff and give your BDM some solid opportunities to get going and ramp up. And then they're out there from day one, outbound prospecting, which piles on top. And then we teach you in our community about how to market to the people down the buyer's pyramid a little bit more. So you got those coming on top and that's what builds and ultimately gets you to the point that you're thriving and you've got say 10 leads a week coming in. But if you've got a couple, couple we can build off of. It's when you have zero that I think it's fine.

Pete Neubig: If I don't have any SEO and I hire a marketing firm, it's going to take six months before I see anything. If I have no leads coming in, I hire a BDM, it's going to take me six months. So get ready to invest. So if your marketing game is weak, it's going to cost you money to invest on getting those leads and your BDM to go out and drum up business and close the business.

Jennifer Merritt: Yes. We say it takes about six to nine months for an outbound pipeline to actually start producing solid leads. So you need to keep that in mind.

Pete Neubig: I'm going to give you a tough one now because it's me.

Jennifer Merritt: Okay.

Pete Neubig: Does a BDM have to be local or could a BDM be near shore or offshore? Meaning can a BDM be a VA?

Jennifer Merritt: Good question, Pete. So I think that the best offshore people are actually BDM assistants. We've worked with a lot of companies that want to bring in a remote BDM that is offshore, not just outside of your state, but an offshore. The problem is, is that most of those, most of those people are selling with features and benefits and very transactionally. And that's just not the market that we're in anymore. So what I tell people is the best team member remotely for your business development manager is going to be like, um, an assistant or is going to be somebody that can help you spin up marketing. Um, we've had tons of success with those two things, especially when a BDM gets to the point where they're, they've got too much on their plate and they need some help. That's a great remote team member, but, and I know you hate this, Pete. Honestly, we don't recommend that you hire an offshore person as your BDM because there's so much nuance to it.

Pete Neubig: Actually, I don't hate that Jen. Cause at Empire, we had boots on the ground. I'm using the terminology BDMs with an assistant who was in Mexico at the time. So we, I literally, I literally had built that. What you're saying is to do. That's exactly what we built. Uh, because we have found, and I'll ask you, you're the expert. Most great BDMs are, I'm going to speak disc here. I know you speak a little bit different language, but they're like an ID, right? And most assistants are C and I's and C's are separate. What I found with my BDMs, the ones who were good anyway, they love to be on the phone. They love talking to people. They loved, you know, telling that same story. They could tell the same sales pitch, same like 15 times a day, same inflection, everything, but they can not write a freaking note in the CRM to save their freaking good life.

Jennifer Merritt: Isn't that so like a salesperson? Pete, you're so right. Yeah. High D, high I, or high I, high D, or high D. Other way around. High D, high I, or high I, high D. I don't care which one it is. I'm looking for high profile either of those. I personally am a high D and then sub low, high I, but I work well as a salesperson. And I've seen many of those profiles as well, because those D's, they want to win. They're like driven by competition and that- They like to ask for the close.

Pete Neubig: They like to, they don't mind confrontation where the I's, if you have no D in you, will just keep speaking. So another prerequisite is not just have the job description, but also understand a little about a DISC profile. If you're going to hire anybody, I think you need to understand what that role, what personality type should be, whether it's DISC or the red, green, blue, or predictive index, whatever it is, know one of them. I think if you're going to hire anybody in your organization, you need to at least speak that language a little bit. All right. Let's talk about pay before we talk about the process, right? So obviously different parts of the country or whatever, it's going to be a little bit different as far as how much, but on average, when you're setting up the pay, is it salary plus commission? Is it only commission, only salary? Like what is the kind of the mix that you've seen out there?

Jennifer Merritt: Yeah. So many people have tried to come into this from like a 1099 type position, commission only. I have seen that work one time. So there has to be very specific parameters in place for that to be successful. What we advise our clients to do is a mix between a healthy base. So we are, when I say healthy, I like to build a base where they can live, but they're not going to live comfortably. So there's a roof over their head. They have a car to drive. And these days you have to have a cell phone. So they have a cell phone and some food, right? But they're not living anywhere near lavishly and they're still hungry. And then what we do is what we call an escalating staircase comp plan, meaning that the more they sell, the more that they make. And we have a structure for that. But I would not go all salary. That doesn't really work well for a salesperson.

Pete Neubig: There's no motivation, right? There's no motivation.

Jennifer Merritt: There's no motivation. There's no incentive to win. And I've seen a lot of poorly designed comp plans. Trust me when I tell you, Pete, I am a salesperson. Good salespeople will wiggle around and figure out how to maximize their comp plans. But when you have just a salary, there's no thought to it. There's no wiggling, there's no finagling, there's no chasing, and it's just not smart. So the all salary thing, although I don't think I've had anyone do that. When I say base plus commission, people are like, yay, sounds good.

Pete Neubig: Now, what about clawback? I'll tell you a quick story here. At Empire, we had almost like two businesses. I was running operations and Steve Rosenberg, my business partner, was running a sales and marketing firm. And the challenge that we had was, well, many, but for this instance, we didn't really have a defined set of rules on the type of personality that we would take, as far as an owner, and as far as the door type that we would take. And so sales wanted to win, they would redline the crap out of our PMA, which I flip and hated. They would sell them stuff that we could not, they would oversell or overpromise, under deliver. Stuff that I couldn't manipulate in the property where, in our system. So I had to remember it. So now we have all these spreadsheets, and then 90 days or 120 days comes on, I'm supposed to give them a free inspection. I have no way of doing it. There's no way of me figuring that stuff out. So anyway, the challenge was, we would take on doors, and then a month or two later, we would churn. Now, don't run your business this way, people. I don't know why I ran my business this way for years, but it was stressful and terrible. But it happens from time to time. Obviously, as the property management firm, I'm paying out the BDM for commission. But now, two months later, I'm getting, you know, guts, as we like to say in the Bronx, I'm getting nothing.

Jennifer Merritt: Yeah, for sure. So I don't love clawbacks, because it just, it's such a negative tone. Yeah, I don't like clawbacks. But I do like, here, I'm about to help you with semantics here, Pete, holdbacks. Okay. So a clawback is when you pay it, and then you pull it back. I don't like that. Because if you claw something back, that business development manager, even if a door didn't work out, what happens to them morally, and just in their brains, mentally, is crushing.

Pete Neubig: Yeah, it's a kick in the groin. And it's a negative conversation. Yeah.

Jennifer Merritt: Which I get, because you want to kick your BDM for not signing right doors. But at the same time, that's how you lose a BDM real fast. So instead, what you do is you implement a holdback, where you don't pay them for 30 days after it closes, or even 60 days after it closes, just to make sure that the door is good. Now, what I also don't recommend with a holdback is for you to say, well, I'm not going to pay you until I'm making money on this. And a lot of PNs end up going that route, but it is not my recommendation. And the reason that it's not is because your salesperson, I don't know, they can't, they don't have any, they don't have any control over that.

Pete Neubig: So you have to pay them on that they have control over.

Jennifer Merritt: And what they start to do is to try to take control of that because their income is attached to it. So now they're out of their job and they're in operations trying to fix what's happening later, and they can't develop business. And that's why you do not do that. But a 30 day or 60 day holdback is perfectly fine.

Pete Neubig: How important is it that somebody that you hire as a BDM has property management experience?

Jennifer Merritt: It is not important at all, but there is something that I look for. I want some desire or passion around real estate and helping other people build wealth through real estate. Because at the end of the day, I know that we get a reputation as used car salespeople and just trying to sell anything to close a deal. But we teach everyone in our community to act like a trusted advisor. So if you're going to be a trusted advisor, you better be kind of excited about what you're selling. Otherwise, it's not going to come across like that. So I always say, you don't have to have any property management experience, but you need to. I love it, Pete, when I interview candidates for the role who say, I want to build a real estate portfolio myself. And that's why I'm coming into this job. I want to learn how to do it for me. I'm like, sign this person up, because that person is going to take the growth, the learning, the coaching, and their duties really, really seriously so that they can elevate themselves personally. They have a connection or an attachment.

Pete Neubig: So no PM experience, realty experience, it's kind of like a bonus, right? Realty. Have you run into where certain states need people to be licensed to sell PMAs?

Jennifer Merritt: Good question. So yes, there are certain property... You know what, let me say this.

Pete Neubig: I think Texas is one.

Jennifer Merritt: Well, the laws are written in a very ambiguous way.

Pete Neubig: So there's one state- I will tell you, I got fined for not having a licensed BDM, but you're right. The law was written where it says you don't need to have a license. And then they did the Mongolian reversal on me and fined me for a thousand bucks.

Jennifer Merritt: Well, there's a fine line here. So your BDM is not allowed to, if they don't have a license, they're not allowed to sign your contracts, and they're not allowed to negotiate pricing. However, anyone in your company can communicate your value as long as they're not negotiating any of the pricing, and that's where you get slapped. But this is where I think there's a misunderstanding out there about needing a licensed BDM. And some people are hard and fast. I'm not going to break any of the rules, even if it's close to it. And that's totally fine. So we hire a BDM and then you've got to go get them licensed, if that's your belief.

Pete Neubig: Now, some people, I hope- The company should pay for that, correct?

Jennifer Merritt: Yeah. Yeah. The company does pay for the licensing. And the downside to that is you lose a little bit of traction on them going out to sell because they're spending time getting their license.

Pete Neubig: Yeah. A hundred percent. You also say you hold back that says, if you don't work for me for the next six months, I'm going to hold back some money to pay back for the license.

Jennifer Merritt: So usually what it is, is you have 90 days to complete the license. And in some states, they need a little bit more time just because of the testing scheduling takes longer. But usually this is a condition of employment. So it's not, you're going to pay me back. It's you're going to get fired. You're going to lose the opportunity. And then we're going to terminate, you cannot hold your license under us anymore. Because the other thing is they have to have a broker that they're underneath for the first couple of years. And so then you pull their license and it's like a whole thing. So that's the, not you pay me back, but more condition of employment.

Pete Neubig: Going back to the commission, I just thought of another question. So there was a time where we were debating if we would pay commission just on the deal they closed, or we pay commission over a two-year period where they get a percentage of property management, fees, whatever. We found the two-year thing to be just, it was just a little bit more difficult to manage. And my bookkeeper almost came over and killed me in my sleep. What are your thoughts on that?

Jennifer Merritt: I've done both. So I've been a BDM at a company that had that same structure, Pete, and we don't recommend that. Two reasons. One, if your salesperson can't track their own commission, that's a problem. You have way too complicated of a comp plan. And if you're 5% of management fees monthly for 12 months, yikes. And then two, exactly what you said, Pete, the admin or the finance people want to absolutely crush whoever created this plan because it is so complex on the backend. Make sure you're getting all the right owners paid and the right owners off. And it's a bit of a nightmare. So at RentScale, it's worth it.

Pete Neubig: I think you could also have somebody kind of get fat and happy. Two years they're in and it's like, I don't need to go out and kill. So yeah. So you pay them on commissions, whatever they kill, you pay them on commissions and you can do a hold back of 60 days or 90 days if the property's not, whatever. All right. Last couple of questions here because we are running... I could talk to you all day. I'm running up against it, but how important is it to have the sales system before you hire the BDM? Can I have kind of a mock-up of one and the BDM helps me with it or do I need to have it all kind of dialed in?

Jennifer Merritt: Okay, so I would have it all dialed in and the reason that I say that is because I want my BDM to come in and be like stage set for nothing but execution and production. When they get to, I always tell my BDMs and when I'm hiring and when I'm when I'm asking questions of a candidate, do you like to lay the yellow brick road or do you want to follow the yellow brick road after it's laid? I don't want the BDMs laying the path because that's one more place that they can escape or an excuse that they have about why they haven't produced. So what you need to have in place prior to your BDM coming in is there's, we have a list of like 12 things but basics. You gotta have the job description, you mentioned that. You gotta have your forecast in place. What are you asking them to achieve? You gotta have your comp plan. You've got to have a guide to training so you know what you're going to train this person on both in operations and in sales. You have to have an onboarding plan as well as a 30, 60, 90 day plan. You got to have a score card. So like there is a system that has to be set up. I would also say where I was going is like if you don't know your ICP, that's when your BDM sells clients that you don't want and then you get mad and they're like I sold doors like what do you want? If you don't know your differentiation and that's part of your system, you don't know your differentiation, then your BDM is going out there saying generic stuff and you're basically wasting the money on them and wasting the money on your leads. You don't have a playbook. It's going to take weeks if not months for your BDM to memorize all the stuff we do. We're in this world so maybe we think it's a little bit more simple but it's not. I have a 40 page playbook and then you have to have a CRM. The last thing I want your BDM doing is coming in and trying to set up stages and workflows because they'll never outbound prospect.

Pete Neubig: And they just keep building, building, building. They're building a system and next thing you know it's nine months in and they haven't sold anything.

Jennifer Merritt: And you have a complete disaster because honestly no salesperson should be building out your system. They're not that detailed.

Pete Neubig: Go visit iVersusMe. That's right. That's right.

Jennifer Merritt: Yeah. Yeah.

Pete Neubig: All right. So if somebody's listening to this and they're like oh man I need to hire a BDM but that sounds just so damn tough. I don't have all these things and I need some help. Can you guys help them?

Jennifer Merritt: Yes. Absolutely. RentScale has two solutions for your business development managers. It is a execution done for you paid by door closed for those just trying to get started or trying to grow a little bit to the point that they can afford a BDM. Or it is help you hire a full time employee, train them and then coach them for accountability later on so that we know that they're achieving the right milestones and we're kind of your partner alongside that.

Pete Neubig: Do you have a third one where you actually come in and help build the sales system or is that?

Jennifer Merritt: Yeah.

Pete Neubig: You do that as well?

Jennifer Merritt: I was going to say, Pete we have well we have we have a fractional sales management where we take it past that next level and we're like sales managers. But yes we also help people set up these sales systems that I'm talking about. ICPs, differentiation, unique selling propositions, playbooks, CRMs, forecasts.

Pete Neubig: Drip campaigns. Oh my.

Jennifer Merritt: Oh yeah. Drip campaigns oh my. We got the Wizard of Oz theme going.

Pete Neubig: Well Jen if somebody wants to reach out to you what's the best way to connect with you?

Jennifer Merritt: So easiest way to connect with me is either on LinkedIn. You can look at my profile just Jen Merritt or jennifer@rentscale.com. I have a zero inbox policy. So one night this week Pete I went to bed and had 10 emails left. I woke up at one o'clock in the morning and was like I can't do this. And I went through and answered all my emails.

Pete Neubig: That is amazing. And if you listen to this and you have a BDM and they are not putting note one into the CRM give us a call or go to vpmsolutions.com. Don't call me. Email me pete@vpmsolutions.com. I won't answer your call because if I don't know your number I am old and I am that guy which sales people hate because they know they never get me because I don't answer the call. And if you love this kind of content and you are not a NARPM member and you want to become a NARPM member and you want to go to broker owner or NARPM nationals go to narpm.org or give them a call at 800-782-3452. Jen thanks so much for being here. See you everybody.

Jennifer Merritt: Thanks for having me Pete.