”Living in a Van Down by the River” featuring Michael Albaum
Pete Neubig: [00:00:04] Welcome back, everybody. And I'm really excited to have Michael Albaum with Roofstock here. So, Michael, you work with Roofstock. Can you tell me a little bit about what Roofstock is and what you do for them?
Michael Albaum: [00:00:15] Yeah, totally. Well, thanks so much for having me, Peter. I appreciate you having me on. So Roofstock is a it's a platform that facilitates the buying and selling of mostly single family homes or some small multifamily on there too. But really it was designed to democratize the way that real estate investors have access to investment opportunities. So they have properties listed all over the country that anyone sitting from their home could underwrite and ultimately invest in again from the comfort of their own home. So if you don't have a property manager and agent and and construction crew team out in Nashville, Tennessee, Roofstock has done a lot of legwork for you and so connect you with all of those people. So you being a Texas guy, could very confidently and easily invest again in markets across the country. And so what I do specifically is I run the Roofstock Academy, which is the education side of the business, where we help teach people how to invest in real estate independent of the platform that they're using. And so if you're just getting started, we've got something for you and if you're a seasoned investor, but looking to plug into a network or scale the portfolio or get involved in some different asset classes, we've definitely got stuff for you as well.
Pete Neubig: [00:01:22] So basically, if I'm a New York investor, I live in New York and I can't afford anything in in New York. I literally go on to Roofstock and find properties, let's say in Ohio that might be part of like might be like what I'm looking for. And then you have all the boots on the ground to help me with the with the property in Ohio, basically.
Michael Albaum: [00:01:42] Exactly. Yeah. We'll put you in touch with lenders, insurance reps, property managers, local agents. You can plug into that team if you're someone that is already investing in Ohio and wants to go do it themselves or already has an existing team, you can totally leverage them as well. But we've got access to listings that you'll see on the MLS's and on Redfin and Zillow. But we also have exclusive listings that you're not going to find anywhere other than Roofstock.
Pete Neubig: [00:02:05] Oh, nice. That's pretty cool. I forgot about that. Yeah. So, Michael, you deal with a lot of real estate investors. Most of our listeners are property managers. In your experience, what are investors looking for in a property manager and why do you think most investors do not utilize a property manager?
Michael Albaum: [00:02:24] Yeah, well Pete, I'm sitting right now, but.
Pete Neubig: [00:02:27] Proverbially.
Michael Albaum: [00:02:28] Picture me getting on my knees and begging, crossing my hands, saying Please, please, please property managers who are listening. All we want is communication. All we want is someone to acknowledge that they've received our email, text or voicemail and say, Hey, I'm on it, I can't get back to you right now, but I've received your communication. I'll get back to you in a week, in two weeks, whatever that is. We just want to know that we're not talking to the void. And I think that's really first and foremost. And I see what really separates great property managers from good from terrible property managers usually hinges on communication. Nobody likes getting bad news, nobody likes delivering bad news. But I would so much rather my property manager pick up the phone and call me and say, Hey, Michael, I've got some bad news, as opposed to letting something fester for weeks, months, days, whatever. And then I find out about it after the fact, and then my property manager looks like a schmuck that they didn't know about it, but maybe they did. They just didn't tell me about it. And then everybody's pissed off. So I think first and foremost, communicate with your clients. And I would say overcommunicate.
Michael Albaum: [00:03:31] I think a lot of us have this idea in our minds of how often we want to communicate or how we best communicate. And I can think I'm a good communicator. And Pete, you could think you're a good communicator. And if we try to communicate with one another, it could fall totally flat on its face. So until we talk about, Hey Pete, I usually like phone calls. How do you like to communicate? Oh, you prefer email. Okay, well, let's remedy that. Oh, and by the way, if I send an email, I expect to hear from you in 24 hours, because that's the personal standard I hold myself to. Oh, you're more of a 48 hour guy. Okay, great. Well, now I know that if I send you an email and don't hear from you for 48 hours, it's not you ignoring me. It's that that's your that's your definition of timeliness. So have conversations at the front end when you're working with clients around expectations and setting expectations and make sure it's a two way conversation that I think would help solve a multitude of problems, both from the property management side, frustration as well as from the investor side feeling frustration.
Pete Neubig: [00:04:25] That's a great, great point. I know one of the challenges that we have in the industry is we worry about if we overcommunicate, are we causing more challenges than need to be? Right. So some some of our look and I was like this when I owned when I own my company, I'm the manager. Let me just do the job. I'll tell you what's going on after I do the job. And sometimes when I would like you, almost like when you when you communicate, you're almost asking for them to make the decision. You're investor. And so what would you say to that? Like, so like, I guess I guess it goes back to your point originally, like how do you want to. What do you want to be? Communicate. How do you like? How? How often, when and what about right?
Michael Albaum: [00:05:07] Yes, Yes. I think that's totally it. Because I think for newer investors, especially newer investors, they are so scared about all of the things that can go wrong. And so they want to be very hands on. I think most newer investors, I would say. And so there's this working relationship that has to develop over time and there's this trust that has to be built over time. And so I almost see it. I know for property managers that I work with, it starts very high. The level of communication and the the often ness or the frequency of communication. And then it tapers off with time. Because if you're my property manager and you're telling me, Hey, I had a light bulb repair fixed it had this tenant called the plumber, fixed it like and are giving me updates, it could still be after the fact. It doesn't need to be asking for decisions, but it just shows me that, wow, Pete is on it. He's taking care of all these things. I didn't even hear about it. He's tackling these issues as opposed to I see a repair bill at the end of the month for 500 bucks. And I'm like, Whoa, where did this come from? Sort of a thing. So I think it can definitely taper off over time. And I think if if you and your listeners or property managers, they frame it as this is an update. I'm not asking for your.
Pete Neubig: [00:06:14] Permission owner.
Michael Albaum: [00:06:16] That has a little bit of a different tone and connotation to it.
Pete Neubig: [00:06:20] I think you make a great point about the trust. I know when people when I manage somebody's property for five years, that was a much easier like when something happened and I just, you know, knocked it out. That was much easier than the reluctant landlord or the new investor that I got. And I got them for five days and something happens or within 30 days. So that's a great point. So, Michael, 70% of the of investors self manage and 30% use property managers. Why do you think that is?
Michael Albaum: [00:06:49] I think it's similar reason as to why there are so many small businesses in this country as compared to major super successful businesses, corporations, what have you. And I think it's because so many people have this mentality of I can do it better myself or I don't trust someone else to do it. Or maybe they inherited the properties and saw their parents self managed. So that's really what they were taught and all they know. And I think if people really took a step back and evaluated the numbers and compared what they would have to pay a property manager or what they're paying themselves against, how much time they're actually spending on the property itself, more people would leverage property managers. So let's take like a run of the mill example 1000 bucks a month in rent, 10% property management fee. That means you're going to pay someone 100 bucks a month to manage the property to do all of this stuff. Now, let's say you're really good and you're an effective manager and you only need to spend 3 hours a month managing this property, doing whatever you need to do. That means that you value your time at $30 an hour, approximately. Think about leveraging a property manager. I mean, really, I would break it down and write down all the stuff that you do on any given month and compare that against, again, how much you would be paying someone else. It is so often worth it. And I think as a property manager, if someone's listening to this, the way that you can really connect with owners is simply explain like, Hey, look, I understand where your pain points are, I understand what your frustrations are. Let me take on some of that burden for you. Oh, and by the way, you're only paying an average. We're going to spend five, 5 hours a month in the property. You're paying us 20, 20 bucks an hour, 15 bucks an hour, whatever it comes out to be, and start talking about it in terms of dollars and cents and break it down for folks. I think it becomes a lot more impactful and meaningful.
Pete Neubig: [00:08:33] I like that. I have a funny story with that. So Steve and I, my business partner, we used to own and self manage our own homes and we had this one lady, she disappeared. So we go to the house and the house is everything is in there. We literally spend the whole afternoon. I left work. I left work early. He flew in. He was a pilot, flew in. We change into our you know, our our geared to like trash out this house. Yeah. We spend hours trashing out this house. He looks at me goes, man, how much money you think we saved? I go, Why do you think we saved? I'm an I.T. specialist. You're a pilot. How much money you lose? No.
Michael Albaum: [00:09:12] It's so.
Pete Neubig: [00:09:13] True.
Michael Albaum: [00:09:14] It's so true. And look like if you're the kind of person that enjoys that stuff, that gets a lot of satisfaction, like more power to you. But I'm someone that I know my time isn't best spent doing that sort of thing. I'm not a professional property manager, so I leave it to the professionals, just like I'm not a lawyer. I don't prepare my own leases. Like there's all kinds of stuff that we do in everyday life that we pay professionals for that for whatever reason. When it comes to management, people are like, Whoa, like, no way, I'm doing it myself. And like, you know, again, make sense for some less so for others.
Pete Neubig: [00:09:45] Got it. So you're real estate investor. How did you get started in real estate investing?
Michael Albaum: [00:09:50] Yeah, so I read a book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, which I think is the causation for so many newer investors. Yeah, seriously, the Bible and I was I was working as a professional fire protection engineer at the time and so, like, math and. Equations and Excel was like what I ate for breakfast, lunch and dinner. And so I understood. I took the concepts, the very high level concept from rich Dad. Poor Dad started getting self educated for about two years and that said like, this just makes sense. From a pure mathematical numbers perspective. This makes sense. I can wrap my head around it. I've lived in homes, so it's not this abstract thing like data was to me at the time. And so I said, let's just let's do it. And I figured out also, like, what my downside risk was, because that's what I was doing for professionally for work is like mitigating and quantifying risk. And I said, okay, I took down what the whole whole piece of the pie and broke it down into monthly bite sized chunks. And I said, okay, this is how much I'm responsible for. This is how much I'm expected to bring in. This is what my exposure looks like. I'm okay with that. And I had a really well paying job. So I said, even worst case scenario, if things go totally sideways, I'll eat Top Ramen for a little bit, but I'm not going to like have to move out of my house that I was renting. So again, we just minimize the exposure and figure out, is this acceptable? And then I was able to move forward.
Pete Neubig: [00:11:06] Did you and you're from California originally or did you buy in your market?
Michael Albaum: [00:11:11] No. So I bought I bought in a market in Southern California about two and a half hours away from where I grew up. It was a market that I knew I had gone. I had gone there as a kid, like for weekend vacations. My grandpa had a mobile home there. He had some commercial property as well. So we knew an agent and a property manager there. And so she's like, Let me show you what this is all about. And so I said, okay, like, this sounds good. So I kind of took a swing, knowing again quite a bit about the market, but I just had people, personnel there that I trusted that was able to really lean into.
Pete Neubig: [00:11:45] You know, going back to that other question, that's one of the things that most investors don't realize is a property manager knows the market so well. They know a good deal, sometimes even better than well, we know as property managers if a property is going to rent and what's going to rent for better than any agent out there. So leverage, leverage your property managers leverage their their local knowledge.
Michael Albaum: [00:12:05] So absolutely.
Pete Neubig: [00:12:06] You took advantage of that real in your first one. So kudos to you. Yeah. So part of your job is Roofstock is educating people about buying investment properties. What do you think are some of the ways that real estate property manager companies can get in front of real estate investors? Because one of the things that we always have is like, how do we get how do we get more clients? How do we get in front of more real estate investors? So obviously you get in front of a lot. What do you think that they could do to to help get some of those clients?
Michael Albaum: [00:12:34] Yeah, I think it's just first and foremost demonstrating value, like you mentioned, showing people, okay, this is what something would rent for. This is how long we expect to be on market. This is what we see typical expense ratios and this market run, these are some of the typical expenses we see associated with properties in this market because especially for remote investors, we talk with with local property managers, boots on the ground and agents regularly. Someone in Texas understands the nuances of Texas issues, commonalities, typical repairs and maintenance that could be totally foreign to someone from California or just outside Texas. And so, you know, you might have termites and you're like, yeah, that's par for the course. Not a big deal. Someone who isn't familiar with that, like.
Pete Neubig: [00:13:14] Whoa.
Michael Albaum: [00:13:14] Termites, like, that's a huge deal. So getting with folks and really holding their hands, walking them through, hey, this is the value that we bring to the table. This is what we're able to do for you. And by the way, these are all the things that you then in turn won't have to worry about can be really eye opening for someone. And you mentioned leveraging the property management's local knowledge. That's something that I always advocate for and always really recommend and encourage people to do is like, go talk to local property managers because they will blow your socks off with some of the things they tell you both in the pros and the cons, but at least you're going to go into this transaction eyes wide open. And so just show people and like the other thing is like return phone calls. I would say I've called a lot of property managers, left voicemails, Hey, I'm a new investor looking to invest in the market and I don't hear anything back. That is like the fastest way to eliminate yourself off someone's potential property management list. Like, sure.
Pete Neubig: [00:14:06] If I'm not if I'm not returning a call for a potential new client, what happens when I'm a client is what everybody thinks right away.
Michael Albaum: [00:14:12] When I'm existing client or I'm a tenant, like, forget about it. So I think those two things again, which kind of harkens back to the communication piece, is is the best way for your property management audience to continue to gain momentum and bring on new clients.
Pete Neubig: [00:14:28] Just curious, do you think that there's value in creating as a property management firm, a class to investors on how to manage property or what goes into managing your property 1,000%? Really? You think people would be interested in that?
Michael Albaum: [00:14:43] I think you would. You would convert more self manage clients to property management clients via that class because if someone is able to see, okay, well these are my systems, these are my pain points, oh, here's a company that like makes their living. That's how they feed their families is by doing this day in and day out. And this is just kind of a side thing for me. I think that would make a lot of sense. I think that would make a lot of sense. And it also allows you to showcase how well you do things like when you're showing people what goes into the sauce, you know, giving people a tour of the sausage factory.
Pete Neubig: [00:15:19] You become the expert.
Michael Albaum: [00:15:20] You become the.
Pete Neubig: [00:15:21] Expert. Yeah. Okay. So one thing that's unique about you is you basically live in a van down by the river and kind of tongue in cheek. But what does it take to live the van life while you're married and have a full time job?
Michael Albaum: [00:15:34] Yeah, it takes a lot of dedication and I'd say a good sense of humor because a lot of things go sideways on a regular basis. And so we lived in a van full time for like eight months. We moved out of our primary, rented it out, and we were trying to figure out where we wanted to live next. So we were traveling around the western us mostly. And you know, it's funny because I was remote. I've been remote working for the last several years before the pandemic, and you need a cell phone and a wi fi connection. And I was traveling in Central America for a while, managing my managers who are taking care of my remote portfolio. And so that wasn't really new for me. It was kind of nice, the fact that I was able to be in the US and doing it because I had constant really good cell signal and wi fi was easier than than in Costa Rica. But I think it's just the mentality shift, the mindset shift around, och, I don't have to be in the same place. My property managers and my property can't move because if those moving around the country you got bigger issues.
Michael Albaum: [00:16:30] But if, if I'm doing it and I can check in on things and I'm able to respond to emails and pick up phone calls and sign paperwork like that's all. Running a real estate portfolio often is if you're leveraging professional managers, which I do across the portfolio. So I was like in Portugal taking care of stuff. I was like, it doesn't really matter where I am. And so with the van thing, like putting it bluntly, like you poop where you eat and so you kind of have to be okay with that. And so it's like it's just little things take more effort. And so you have to be okay with not knowing exactly where you're going to sleep every single night, trying to figure out where you're going to go get fresh drinking water from, where are you going to be able to go get groceries from these sort of things? That sounds fun to you. Like, I would highly encourage everyone to give it a try for a little bit if you were sitting here listening to. Oh, my God, That sounds like hell on Earth. Well, then let me save you the time. Don't bother.
Pete Neubig: [00:17:21] I think maybe in RV in my future, but definitely not. Not a van. I need I definitely need some kind of comfort of living, as my wife says. You know, we talk about, hey, maybe we should go, you know, what do you call it? Camping. And she goes camping to me, he's a motel six with basic cable, like camping. And it's all it's all frame.
Michael Albaum: [00:17:45] Of reference, right? It's all frame.
Pete Neubig: [00:17:46] Reference. I was. I just find it. I just find it amazing when when people can do that, I just. I just find it simply amazing.
Michael Albaum: [00:17:53] So, you know, it was it was cool. So we bought the van and it was like it used to be a mobile golf showroom. So it was like this big box on wheels. And the guy that converted it for us, we knew him. He was a buddy of ours, so we helped design the thing. So we had a lot of creature comforts. So we had a full shower and a toilet and a clean bed and two burner stove and like roof places for the surfboards, a ton of storage. But yeah, it's just like you have a lot of the creature comforts, but you also definitely miss, like some of the stuff from home, like being able to walk around or say little, little stuff.
Pete Neubig: [00:18:24] Have a little walk around that is funny. And I guess while you're in the Pacific Northwest mainly, so not a heat is not as big of an issue, right? Like if you tried to do that in Texas in August and July, God bless you and good luck with that.
Michael Albaum: [00:18:38] It would be super tough. Yeah, we tried to follow the good weather and we had to definitely reroute a lot of our trips because of the fires were so bad in 2021 and a lot of Pacific Northwest, so.
Pete Neubig: [00:18:47] Right.
Michael Albaum: [00:18:47] Yeah. You got to be able to kind of bob and weave a little bit.
Pete Neubig: [00:18:49] Yeah, for sure, man. I just find that super amazing. So. All right. So most property managers that are similar to realtors are just too darn busy earning a living. So they don't they actually don't invest in real estate. I it's amazing to me when I talk to realtors and property managers like, yeah, they don't invest in real estate. And I actually lived this. I was investing in real estate, started my management firm, stopped for like six years, investing in real estate. And then when I sold the firm, I started buying property again. So what is some advice that you could give to somebody and say, Hey, you got to start, Here's how you can start investing in real estate, especially if you're in the industry.
Michael Albaum: [00:19:23] Yeah, I mean, I think you really have to drink the Kool-Aid if you're going to be in this business. And I think it's so important because I would say just kind of like flip the script a little bit and think about your potential clients. If you're a client and you go to someone and say, Hey, you know what it's like at the car dealership, you go to the Ford dealership and you're talking to the salesperson, you're like, Oh, cool. If you drive a Ford, I'm like, No, I drive a Toyota. Like, instantly lose credibility right there And like, through no fault of the road. And so I think you really have to try to live and breathe the thing that you're selling and like the experience that you get from owning a property, even if it's just one, you can now convey that to your client and say, Hey, look, I get it. I'm an investor. I understand your pain points. And you know, on podcast, Real Estate Investing podcast, we talk about all the gurus and stuff that are selling stuff, and we always tell people to be very cautious around people that are claiming to do something or know something or be the expert at something, but yet they don't do it themselves.
Michael Albaum: [00:20:21] And so I would say that you're probably losing credibility with clients if someone asks you the question, Hey, are you are you an investor yourself? And you say no, because they clearly I mean, they're going to take away from that. Okay, well, that person doesn't understand exactly what I'm going through. They don't know what it's like to feel the things that I'm feeling that I'm experiencing. And until they do, yeah, you're not aligned. You're not aligned. That's exactly it. So I would encourage everyone to do so. And I would say that property managers are probably in the best position out of any real estate investor out there to purchase great deals you have like you understand and get to. You get the insider scoop on the financials and the performance and the tenants of all of these properties. And so if someone comes to you, a client comes to you and says, Hey, I'm thinking about selling, I would start thinking about buying because again, you've got a great insider scoop.
Pete Neubig: [00:21:11] I think you hit the nail on the head on that one. I bought my last six properties from our portfolio and all I did was obviously it was I knew the the investor was looking to sell. Right. And he, I knew that he was somewhat, you know, looking to sell pretty quickly. And I went in, I looked at all the leases, I looked at all the maintenance, I looked at all the history. You have it all right there. You're like, Oh, I don't even know. I don't even need to go do an inspection on this one. I know everything about the property. I can literally offer them money right then and there. I know I was going to lease For how long? Yeah. So I think that's a great I think that's great advice. So thanks, Michael. Yeah. All right, man. We're going to take a quick break and I want to come back for the Lightning Round. Are you ready for the lightning round?
Michael Albaum: [00:21:54] Oh, let's do it.
Pete Neubig: [00:21:55] All right. We'll be back. We're back right after these messages. All right. Welcome, everybody. Welcome to the show The Lightning Round. That's me doing that. We don't have sound effects here at Knorr-bremse, so I'll do my own sound effect.
Michael Albaum: [00:22:06] I love it, man.
Pete Neubig: [00:22:06] That's great. All right, So this first question is going to be interesting because we got the van thing out of the way. So what is one thing that most people do not know about you?
Michael Albaum: [00:22:18] One thing that most people don't know. Me, I am. A middle child and have a chronic case of middle child syndrome.
Pete Neubig: [00:22:25] Do you use virtual assistants in your real estate business or with your roofstock PC business?
Michael Albaum: [00:22:30] You know, I don't, Pete. And so when you and I got connected and you were telling me about BPM solutions, my ears perked up like, I don't like an L for like a dog. They were singing. So I definitely it's something I want to do more of, more of. Some of I want to get started for sure.
Pete Neubig: [00:22:45] All right. We'll talk after this.
Michael Albaum: [00:22:47] Yes.
Pete Neubig: [00:22:47] What is your favorite vacation that you've taken?
Michael Albaum: [00:22:50] My favorite vacation that I've taken. Oh, my gosh. Wow. I went to the Dominican Republic to do some kite surfing in a town called Cabaret, and that was just like, blew my socks off. It was unbelievable.
Pete Neubig: [00:23:02] I got to go hang out with you more. You have. You have What is one piece of advice you'd give someone just starting out in business? Doesn't have to be real estate, just business itself.
Michael Albaum: [00:23:14] I think it all comes down to the education piece and it's something that I harp on all the time in the Roofstock Academy, like, go get educated and you just have to go into the decision that you're making eyes wide open and anything you do understand the risks, the upsides, whatever. But just like, don't get caught looking.
Pete Neubig: [00:23:32] Does pineapple belong on pizza?
Michael Albaum: [00:23:34] 1,000%.
Pete Neubig: [00:23:36] I knew you were going to say that.
Michael Albaum: [00:23:37] Yeah, we.
Pete Neubig: [00:23:38] We can't be friends. I'm sorry.
Michael Albaum: [00:23:40] Yeah, We'll have to agree to disagree on that. We'll get pineapple on half. How about that?
Pete Neubig: [00:23:46] What book are you currently reading or what is one that's impacted your business or life?
Michael Albaum: [00:23:50] So I'm currently reading the Oh, man, The Loopholes of Real Estate investing. It's a rich dad book. Yeah, it's a hockey book. Yeah. Yeah. So I run a book club over at the academy. So that's what we're doing for for this book for the summer.
Pete Neubig: [00:24:05] That's an old school book. Yeah, I read that one probably 15 years ago. Yeah. Nice.
Michael Albaum: [00:24:11] It's good. It's. It's. It's like, dense and full of, like, actionable stuff that people can can do. So it's been great.
Pete Neubig: [00:24:17] All right, Other than an open podcast, what's a podcast you recommend?
Michael Albaum: [00:24:21] Oh, man, I love The Daily, which is New York Times production, talking about news stories that are coming out for that day. And it comes out every day.
Pete Neubig: [00:24:28] All right. Or yours?
Michael Albaum: [00:24:30] Or Yeah, or I mean, I don't want to just sell.
Pete Neubig: [00:24:35] Well, swinging and miss.
Michael Albaum: [00:24:36] Yeah, the remote real estate. It's funny because, like, I host the remote real estate investor, and I don't know about you, but I have a hard time listening to myself. And so I'll listen to some episodes when all of them, she's like, Oh, man. Because we're our own biggest critics, right?
Pete Neubig: [00:24:49] Yeah, it's funny. I actually will have a new podcast drop and people are like, I'll tell the person I interviewed and it's like, Well, how how do we how was it or how did it come out? I'm like, I don't know. I didn't I don't know. I didn't listen to it. I was there. Yeah, I got it live. I don't need to hear the replay. What comic book character do you most associate with? Oh, man, that is such a good question, Pete.
Michael Albaum: [00:25:14] So it's not like a traditional comic book, but I feel kind of like Calvin and Hobbes, where I'm definitely like Calvin. I had tons of imaginary friends. It was off playing by myself for a long time and really, frankly, enjoy that.
Pete Neubig: [00:25:28] All right. Last one. What do you prefer, Cats or dogs?
Michael Albaum: [00:25:30] Dogs. I'm allergic to cats. And, you know, I have a dog I through and through.
Pete Neubig: [00:25:37] Michael, if somebody wanted to get in touch with you, how would they how would they get in touch with you?
Michael Albaum: [00:25:41] You can find me at Roofstock Academy dot com. You can find me on LinkedIn or Twitter, which is something I never thought I would say, but I'm there at at Michael Albom or Michael, Alabama on LinkedIn.
Pete Neubig: [00:25:51] And if you want to join napalm, go to narbonne dot org. So wpm dot org or you can call them at 800 7823452. And if you are like Michael interested in virtual assistants, go to VPN solutions dot com or you can email me direct that Pete at VPN solutions dot com. Thanks everybody. Thanks Michael.
Michael Albaum: [00:26:14] Hey thank you Pete It was a blast.
A Podcast | Michael Albaum
NARPM Radio host Pete Neubig interviews "Roofstock" Real Estate Investor Podcast Host/Roofstock Academy director Michael Albaum, who discusses what it takes to live in a van down by the river while being in the PM industry!
Roofstock is a platform that helps real estate investors purchase single-family homes all over the country.